Stagecoach East Scotland

[overthewater]

Oh for goodness sake...
Of course it's in Fife Council's interest to get more people bidding...it brings the prices down, and given that the tenders were let on the basis of "least cost", its obvious money is the name of the game.

Guess what... It never.... Last time in 2010, Stagecoach looked over the tenders and complained, and won back a good amount. The council was red faced and ended up saving more money given Stagecoach the work.... but as you say its the name of the game.

School contracts will not be keeping depots open...while they're a good stable source of income (for the life of the contract), you're never going to make much money out of them. It's much more complex than you make out.

So why are there shutting a depot? Rennies is private hire and Citylink

I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these 'losses' staying with Stagecoach, if the new operators can't source vehicles/drivers....I'm sure that's happened before?

Well NO, there was a cooling off period for about four week before this official announcement. If you look online you will see Festival and Bay travel have both bought new stock and have the drivers to deal with the increase in work. First are already sorted.

Your right it has happened before, but this was all dealt with during the cooling of period, when no one know who won what. Its only happened with A1 coaches in Leven with three duties?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

S

Guess what... It never.... Last time in 2010, Stagecoach looked over the tenders and complained, and won back a good amount. The council was red faced and ended up saving more money given Stagecoach the work.... but as you say its the name of the game.



So why are there shutting a depot? Rennies is private hire and Citylink

It's simple why they're closing a depot. There's less work, less revenue and less profit and less contribution to fixed costs. Therefore, to maintain margin, the fixed costs need to be reduced which can be achieved if there's spare depot capacity around the fleet allowing a site to close.

Why Cowdenbeath? As I said before, could be the location? Could be the cost base or overheads? Or, as an old building, is it requiring money spent on it sooner rather than later? Those and other considerations are usually the reasons behind closing sites.

 

[overthewater]

S

It's simple why they're closing a depot. There's less work, less revenue and less profit and less contribution to fixed costs. Therefore, to maintain margin, the fixed costs need to be reduced which can be achieved if there's spare depot capacity around the fleet allowing a site to close.

Why Cowdenbeath? As I said before, could be the location? Could be the cost base or overheads? Or, as an old building, is it requiring money spent on it sooner rather than later? Those and other considerations are usually the reasons behind closing sites.

If its for the above reason, then the other depots were subsidising Cowdenbeath, since its not lost any work, and its been proven. On top of that, there is no need for any money to be spent on the place since a whole load of work was carried out a few years ago, Offices were also gutted out, so a good deal of money was spent on the place.

This is what's caused all the yahoo about the place shutting.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If its for the above reason, then the other depots were subsidising Cowdenbeath, since its not lost any work, and its been proven. On top of that, there is no need for any money to be spent on the place since a whole load of work was carried out a few years ago, Offices were also gutted out, so a good deal of money was spent on the place.

This is what's caused all the yahoo about the place shutting.

I don't think that's the point. The business OVERALL has lost work and needs to reduce its fixed costs. There's spare capacity in the network and a depot closure (albeit sad) is the natural consequence.

As I said, it may just be geography. Or it may be that despite the money spent before, it needs more to be spent; don't be fooled that having spent some money that other problems can't then come to light. It may just be that the site is more commercially attractive for redevelopment?

 

[overthewater]

I don't think that's the point. The business OVERALL has lost work and needs to reduce its fixed costs. There's spare capacity in the network and a depot closure (albeit sad) is the natural consequence.

As I said, it may just be geography. Or it may be that despite the money spent before, it needs more to be spent; don't be fooled that having spent some money that other problems can't then come to light. It may just be that the site is more commercially attractive for redevelopment?

It is sad, and the drivers and unions are trying everything to stop it happening. Its deffo not geography. I do wonder if it really is commercially attractive?

Its not like the Linlithgow, Dalkeith or even Muss. Heck even Rennies would be more commercially attractive since its right next to planned major housing development. Also Look at Kirkcaldy, 11 years now its been closed and still never sold off. It has been used for repair works and storage.

 

[Stan Drews]

S

It's simple why they're closing a depot. There's less work, less revenue and less profit and less contribution to fixed costs. Therefore, to maintain margin, the fixed costs need to be reduced which can be achieved if there's spare depot capacity around the fleet allowing a site to close.

Why Cowdenbeath? As I said before, could be the location? Could be the cost base or overheads? Or, as an old building, is it requiring money spent on it sooner rather than later? Those and other considerations are usually the reasons behind closing sites.

Well said that man. I'm glad to see someone has a grip on reality.

It's also worth noting that depots won't bid for contracts, as that will be a centrally controlled function, as will the allocation of the contracts that they do win. School contracts are also regularly swapped between depots, in order to provide the best fit with the changing commercial needs of the business. In fact, many are done by one depot in the morning, and a different depot in the afternoon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It is sad, and the drivers and unions are trying everything to stop it happening. Its deffo not geography. I do wonder if it really is commercially attractive?

Its not like the Linlithgow, Dalkeith or even Muss. Heck even Rennies would be more commercially attractive since its right next to planned major housing development. Also Look at Kirkcaldy, 11 years now its been closed and still never sold off. It has been used for repair works and storage.

Yep, but Kirkcaldy HAS got issues in terms of redevelopment.

I don't know why it's been selected (and neither do you) but look at some of the permutations....

• Could you close the main Dunfermline depot and incorporate into Cowdenbeath? Really??
• Could you close Rennies depot and put them into Dunfermline and Cowdenbeath? Yes, but then you have the issues of drivers in the same depot on different terms and conditions of employment (and that is not a good situation)
• Could you close Glenrothes? Yes possibly, but Glenrothes is much cheaper as a site to operate in terms of utilities and overheads
• Is Cowdenbeath valuable? Well, it's hardly Mayfair but it is already surrounded by housing and is almost a like a cul de sac, set away from the road. Is it more valuable than Aberhill or Glenrothes..... Probably

To be honest, only Stagecoach's management know the reasons for closure but I hardly think they need to "hide" behind some excuse given some of the things the firm have done in the past

 

[TaysideTrainz]

So regarding the new Tayway hybrids, I travelled on 13048 this morning and 13045 this afternoon. The bus was silent when I boarded, the bus departed my stop and went into diesel mode with a slight judder after around 10mph. It takes a little while to get used to that.
The bus itself is very nice; very smooth although the rattles on board are extremely bad for a brand new bus. The new-bus smell is, as always very nice. I have experienced the front seat downstairs and front seat upstairs; and the front seat downstairs is considerably comfier than the ADL E40Ds.
Final thing is small but the bell sound is fairly quiet but it's great - it sounds as if you're on an old Routemaster...

That's all!

 

[mbonwick]

There's probably some incentive to redevelop Kirkcaldy as nobody has bought the old depot site in the year it's been on the market, and Fife Council are keen to get it redeveloped so there could well be financial grants on offer.

Plus it offers the opportunity to consolidate admin functions at the site as well as vehicles/engineering.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's probably some incentive to redevelop Kirkcaldy as nobody has bought the old depot site in the year it's been on the market, and Fife Council are keen to get it redeveloped so there could well be financial grants on offer.

Plus it offers the opportunity to consolidate admin functions at the site as well as vehicles/engineering.

IIRC, there was some issue about stabilising the land at Kirkcaldy but I'm sure that it will grants etc will allow it's redevelopment.

Always sad when depots go. Towns lose a certain something and certain routes just don't survive the upheaval (from dead running or unreliability from interworking, as examples I've known). That said, there are naturally benefits too (or companies wouldn't do it).

I've taken a lot of record shots of depots over the years (as many spotters seem to ignore them) but Cumnock was one I've never managed to get to Got all the Fife ones except Cupar and Lochgelly (gone before my time) but even got Kelty in its later use - I digress!

 

[overthewater]

IIRC, there was some issue about stabilising the land at Kirkcaldy but I'm sure that it will grants etc will allow it's redevelopment.

Always sad when depots go. Towns lose a certain something and certain routes just don't survive the upheaval (from dead running or unreliability from interworking, as examples I've known). That said, there are naturally benefits too (or companies wouldn't do it).

I've taken a lot of record shots of depots over the years (as many spotters seem to ignore them) but Cumnock was one I've never managed to get to Got all the Fife ones except Cupar and Lochgelly (gone before my time) but even got Kelty in its later use - I digress!

The problem with Kirkcaldy is what could you really build on it? its not a big piece of land, and its next to a Morrisons and huge esplanade car park, and a duel carriageway road. The piece across the road where the old bus painters were you could have flats etc.

Mind you Kirkcaldy already has a few stalled redevelopments in the town. Add in the fact, there are two new housing estate about ready to be built
Kingslaw, with the another one just mins away from the depot around Invertiel road. There is alot more easier places to build.

I take it TheGrandWazoo, you managed to visit old Bathgate and Livingston bus depot & station.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The problem with Kirkcaldy is what could you really build on it? its not a big piece of land, and its next to a Morrisons and huge esplanade car park, and a duel carriageway road. The piece across the road where the old bus painters were you could have flats etc.

Mind you Kirkcaldy already has a few stalled redevelopments in the town. Add in the fact, there are two new housing estate about ready to be built
Kingslaw, with the another one just mins away from the depot around Invertiel road. There is alot more easier places to build.

I take it TheGrandWazoo, you managed to visit old Bathgate and Livingston bus depot & station.

Sadly not. I was working in Fife a few years ago and managed to snap the depots there. Got most other Eastern Scottish ones though incl. New St, Dalkeith, Kelso (and even Baillieston and Westfield) etc but not those two nor Clarkston, Dunbar or Broxburn.

Considering I now live in the South West, I've not done too badly in recording Scottish ones but got a few gaps in some areas and anything that went before 1993 mainly.

 

[Stan Drews]

There's probably some incentive to redevelop Kirkcaldy as nobody has bought the old depot site in the year it's been on the market, and Fife Council are keen to get it redeveloped so there could well be financial grants on offer.

Plus it offers the opportunity to consolidate admin functions at the site as well as vehicles/engineering.

I believe the old Kirkcaldy depot has been sold, hence why it has now been virtually cleared of all the various old withdrawn buses that were still lurking inside.

 

[mbonwick]

I thought that as well, but it was still listed a few months ago on the website of Montagu Evans, the firm handling the sale

http://www.montagu-evans.co.uk/services/residential/resiproperties

Brochure for the Kirkcaldy site is: http://www.montagu-evans.co.uk/assets/IRD/PDF/Kirkcaldy.pdf

 

[jamieintercity]

all 'tayway' hybrids are now in service on the 73. 13044 made an appearance on the 20/21 route yesterday.

All of the 60-plates E400s (19641-47/50/51/54/55/662/668) have now left arbroath for Sheffield, 19648/9 were still hanging about arbroath yesterday, they should leave arbroath sometime this week.
19895 (the spare 20/21 bus) has apparently gone to cowdenbeath.
Loanees 15631 and 19370 have returned to Kilmarnock/inverness.

 

[Stan Drews]

I thought that as well, but it was still listed a few months ago on the website of Montagu Evans, the firm handling the sale

http://www.montagu-evans.co.uk/services/residential/resiproperties

Brochure for the Kirkcaldy site is: http://www.montagu-evans.co.uk/assets/IRD/PDF/Kirkcaldy.pdf

You'll notice that a closing date was set recently, which usually indicates sufficient serious interest to achieve a sale.

 

[overthewater]

The winds of change might have come about, with Cowdenbeath staying open? Whos knows, as something is afoot at the moment.

 

[Liam]

Yesterdays Fife edition of the Courier led with this story:

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/lo...ure-threatened-cowdenbeath-bus-depot-1.880182

The Courier understands Stagecoach staff at Fife’s Aberhill, St Andrews, Glenrothes and Dunfermline depots are being offered a 1% pay rise this year, in a deal which could keep Cowdenbeath depot open, albeit with only around a third of the 141 staff it currently employs.

An insider said if they turn down the offer, which would rise to 2.4% the following year and include restrictions on pay rates for new starts, Cowdenbeath would again be facing the chop.

The print edition said the 1% offered was 'drastically smaller than what was hoped.' The depot would also be reduced to 50-60 staff.

 

[overthewater]

There is also a chance Cowdenbeath, may actually end up with the Express work, instead of Dunfermline.

I do believe there is some VERY misleading information going about in connection to the job losses, I don't know why. Also Rennies are also Short of staff at the moment, and are having to drafted in inspectors office staff and megabus drivers to cover the work.

“Now it could remain open with 50-60 drivers, mainly on the 19 route, but dependent on the other workers taking just a 1% rise.

The Cowdenbeath guys are trying to say to them if it closes there would be upheaval at all the other depots, with changes to rotas and things, so it’s in their favour to accept it and avoid that disruption.”

Again, if the first quote goes ahead there would still be an upheaval at the other depots who are nicking the other work of Cowdenbeath.

 

[Stan Drews]

I do believe there is some VERY misleading information going about in connection to the job losses, I don't know why.

Yeah, most of it comes from you!

 

[overthewater]

Yeah, most of it comes from you!

You tell me where I said there going to be LOTS AND LOTS of job losses? The papers have.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. If the new contracts are now for one bus each, how are you defining the biggest routes?

After double checking the above, I've come across this:

When the tenders went out last year, you could actually, which route covered which aspect of the old contracts. Most of the routes have been award to the same company, in most cases.

 

[Jamester]

A pay freeze was offered during initial wage negotiations (weeks ago) in order to keep Cowdenbeath depot open. This offer was rejected by Stagecoach.

Don't know if circumstances have now changed, though.

 

[TaysideTrainz]

Yeah, most of it comes from you!

Too true!!!

 

[Stan Drews]

A pay freeze was offered during initial wage negotiations (weeks ago) in order to keep Cowdenbeath depot open. This offer was rejected by Stagecoach.

Don't know if circumstances have now changed, though.

No, a pay freeze wasn't offered!

However, after negotiations between the union and management, a revised pay offer (with a lower % increase than originally offered) was put to the ballot, which if it had been accepted would have kept some work at Cowdenbeath depot.
However the staff rejected this, so the closure will go ahead as planned in August.

 

[overthewater]

Too true!!!

Again WHERE?

How can you have lots of jobs loses if your short staffed?

 

[Jamester]

No, a pay freeze wasn't offered!

However, after negotiations between the union and management, a revised pay offer (with a lower % increase than originally offered) was put to the ballot, which if it had been accepted would have kept some work at Cowdenbeath depot.
However the staff rejected this, so the closure will go ahead as planned in August.

I read that the union did claim they tabled an offer of a pay freeze at the very start of the wage negotiations. They claimed the company rejected it so it was never put to ballot. But circumstances and conditions must have changed somewhat that a reduced pay offer was considered to keep the depot open.

Irrelevant now anyway!

 

[overthewater]

The changes have started to appear, some of them are unexpected.

PM0000004/400 - FIFE SCOTTISH OMNIBUSES LTD T/A STAGECOACH IN FIFE, OFFICES 47-51, EVANS BUSINESS CENTRE, JOHN SMITH BUSINESS PARK, KIRKCALDY, KY2 6HD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Dunfermline bus station and Livingston bus terminal given service number 51 effective from 17-Aug-2015. To amend Timetable.

PM0000004/463 - FIFE SCOTTISH OMNIBUSES LTD T/A STAGECOACH IN FIFE, OFFICES 47-51, EVANS BUSINESS CENTRE, JOHN SMITH BUSINESS PARK, KIRKCALDY, KY2 6HD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Parkneuk Braigh Gardens and Glenrothes bus station given service number 81/81A effective from 17-Aug-2015. To amend Route and Timetable.

PM0000004/459 - FIFE SCOTTISH OMNIBUSES LTD T/A STAGECOACH IN FIFE, OFFICES 47-51, EVANS BUSINESS CENTRE, JOHN SMITH BUSINESS PARK, KIRKCALDY, KY2 6HD
Variation Accepted: Operating between Dunfermline, Queen Margaret Hospital and Falkirk bus station given service number 28 effective from 17-Aug-2015. To amend Route and Timetable.

PM0000004/474 - FIFE SCOTTISH OMNIBUSES LTD T/A STAGECOACH IN FIFE, OFFICES 47-51, EVANS BUSINESS CENTRE, JOHN SMITH BUSINESS PARK, KIRKCALDY, KY2 6HD
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Falkirk, Newmarket Street and Alloa, Shillinghill given service number F15/15 effective from 17-Aug-2015.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It seems the upper age limit for the school buses is now 20 years, instead of the previous 15, so much for that.

Also it seems there is one piece of good news coming out of these changes, but we're just wait for the official announcement.

 

[TaysideTrainz]

Have been reliably informed by Dougie King that all ES buses now have RTI systems fitted. Although from personal experience, the system doesn't appear to be working at the minute!!!

 

[robertclark125]

For the duration of the Open golf championship, there are a couple of extra journeys on routes X58 and 95. There is also one extra Sunday journey on the 95 as well.

 

[overthewater]

Just to say Service No51 will be improved to operate hourly every day including early morning peak journeys. There will be no gaps on a Saturday. So its nice to see the company making some improvements during the reduction in council work.

To be fair most of the other changes are not that big.