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One of the 5 recent First South Yorkshire E200 MMC transfers (67146) has appeared in service today on the 6/6A/7/7A circuit. I though initially it was its first day in service here, but according to bustimes.org it did some evening work on the 25 yesterday
Not a single part of this post is correct. It's a shame that the usual glass half empty merchants elect to spread such falsehoods. For the record:
The new identity has not been 'launched'.
The refurbishment programme is not yet complete. Had you seen one of the buses in question you would appreciate that the work is not a lick of paint and a quick tidy. It is a heavy refurbishment that take around a month per bus, hence the length of time being taken.
Designs for the permanent vinyls have been created and the vinyls are in the process of being produced. When a suitable number of buses have received them, the new brand will be launched.
You're not able to comment on delivery or follow-up for the abover reasons.
Welcome to the forum! I guess you won't get beyond 10 posts if you are so easily offended by views different to your own.
I do seem to recall photographs and text, featuring Mr Eggleton inside the buses in question with their Minton Tile floors etc. Was that not a 'launch'. Or just a teaser? In which case stop teasing and get on with it.
The programme has been 'running' for nine months. How many buses are to be done, how many had been done nine months ago, how many have been done in the interim, what is the programme / timescale for completion?
This is a free country, I will comment as I see fit. You may agree or disagree.
Registration numberPD1128125/104
Licence NumberPD1128125
Variation number8
StatusRegistered
Service number.32, 32X
Service typeNormal Stopping
Start pointTesco, Town Meadows Way, Uttoxeter
Finish pointHanley Bus Station, Stoke on Trent/Stoke, Railway Station
ViaCheadle
Date received11 Aug 2022
Effective date25 Sep 2022
End date
Supported by subsidies?No
Local authorities covered by routeStaffordshire County Council
City of Stoke-on-Trent Council
TAOs covered by routeWest Midlands
Details of the D & G 32 / 32A / 32X service from the end of September are now visible on the Traveline South West site.
Basically:
every 30 minutes Hanley to Tean Monday to Friday but most run direct - only every 120 minutes via Kingsley.
every 60 minutes on Saturday with no services via Kingsley.
sort of every 60 minutes between Tean and Uttoxeter but with a 'gap' to allow for a new 32A service via Alton to Uttoxeter (and back after allowing for shopping).
No Sunday service.
D & G have also registered a Saturday only Hanley to Ball Green service 8. I'll take a guess that First are withdrawing their Saturday service on this route.
PD1128125/148
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In other news, details of First Potteries service changes from the end of September are also available on Traveline South West.
Already meagre evening services cut back further.
Sunday services cut back in terms of period of operation, route served or cut entirely.
A similar pattern on Saturday but not quite as drastic.
Service 4 will no longer serve Wood Lane and Audley, terminating at Crackley instead.
Clayton / Westbury Park does not appear to be served by any replacement First service, leaving the D & G 9 service to operate every 30 minutes.
Hanley to Kidsgrove (7) and Hanley to Biddulph (7A) cut to hourly.
Service 25 improved to every 12 minutes (from 15), service 11 improved to every 10/20 minutes (from 15/30) and service 3 improved to every 10 minutes (from every 15 minutes and over Potteries end of the route).
That is not the full list, it is just too depressing to bother.
And some people suggest I'm a glass half-empty merchant. No I just report facts, as they actually are. If the news is bad, I report it. If the news is good, I report it.
Details of the D & G 32 / 32A / 32X service from the end of September are now visible on the Traveline South West site.
Basically:
every 30 minutes Hanley to Tean Monday to Friday but most run direct - only every 120 minutes via Kingsley.
every 60 minutes on Saturday with no services via Kingsley.
sort of every 60 minutes between Tean and Uttoxeter but with a 'gap' to allow for a new 32A service via Alton to Uttoxeter (and back after allowing for shopping).
No Sunday service.
D & G have also registered a Saturday only Hanley to Ball Green service 8. I'll take a guess that First are withdrawing their Saturday service on this route.
PD1128125/148
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
In other news, details of First Potteries service changes from the end of September are also available on Traveline South West.
Already meagre evening services cut back further.
Sunday services cut back in terms of period of operation, route served or cut entirely.
A similar pattern on Saturday but not quite as drastic.
Service 4 will no longer serve Wood Lane and Audley, terminating at Crackley instead.
Clayton / Westbury Park does not appear to be served by any replacement First service, leaving the D & G 9 service to operate every 30 minutes.
Hanley to Kidsgrove (7) and Hanley to Biddulph (7A) cut to hourly.
Service 25 improved to every 12 minutes (from 15), service 11 improved to every 10/20 minutes (from 15/30) and service 3 improved to every 10 minutes (from every 15 minutes and over Potteries end of the route).
That is not the full list, it is just too depressing to bother.
And some people suggest I'm a glass half-empty merchant. No I just report facts, as they actually are. If the news is bad, I report it. If the news is good, I report it.
You could say Cheadle and Tean benefit from First going as the new timetable will create a even 30 min headway rather than the current uneven service. It also re introduces the former 32A.
First's changes by service (more cuts):
3/3A - returns to every 10 min to Kidsgrove on weekdays. Last evening bus now 1935 from Hanley
4/4A - 4 only runs to Crackley and on Sundays only as far as Newcastle
6/6A - evening services removed. Last bus now 2000 weekdays, 1905 Saturdays and 1730 Sundays
7/7A - both reduced to hourly daytime only and Sunday service removed
8 - Saturday service removed but will be covered by D&G
11, 11B - increased to every 10 min on Weekdays. Sundays re times by up to half an hour.
18 - Runs 5 mins later. Last service from Leek removed and first to Leek on Saturdays. Sundays removed.
21 - departs Hanley 5 mins later
23 - arrives into Hanley 5 mins later
25 - increased to every 12 min on weekdays. Last buses now 2100 on weekdays, 2000 Saturday and 1930 on Sunday.
KF(32) - withdrawn and replaced by D&G 32, 32A and 32X
37 - no change
72/72A - withdrawn and combined with the 99
98 - Saturdays will run between Newcastle and Porthill only.
99 - extended to Chell Heath to cover the 72/72A. Saturday service withdrawn.
101 - weekday services re-timed in Stafford. Last service from Hanley 1800, 1830 from Stafford to Hanley and 1920 to Stone. Sundays withdrawn.
You could say Cheadle and Tean benefit from First going as the new timetable will create a even 30 min headway rather than the current uneven service. It also re introduces the former 32A.
First's changes by service (more cuts):
3/3A - returns to every 10 min to Kidsgrove on weekdays. Last evening bus now 1935 from Hanley
4/4A - 4 only runs to Crackley and on Sundays only as far as Newcastle
6/6A - evening services removed. Last bus now 2000 weekdays, 1905 Saturdays and 1730 Sundays
7/7A - both reduced to hourly daytime only and Sunday service removed
8 - Saturday service removed but will be covered by D&G
11, 11B - increased to every 10 min on Weekdays. Sundays re times by up to half an hour.
18 - Runs 5 mins later. Last service from Leek removed and first to Leek on Saturdays. Sundays removed.
21 - departs Hanley 5 mins later
23 - arrives into Hanley 5 mins later
25 - increased to every 12 min on weekdays. Last buses now 2100 on weekdays, 2000 Saturday and 1930 on Sunday.
KF(32) - withdrawn and replaced by D&G 32, 32A and 32X
37 - no change
72/72A - withdrawn and combined with the 99
98 - Saturdays will run between Newcastle and Porthill only.
99 - extended to Chell Heath to cover the 72/72A. Saturday service withdrawn.
101 - weekday services re-timed in Stafford. Last service from Hanley 1800, 1830 from Stafford to Hanley and 1920 to Stone. Sundays withdrawn.
I wonder at what point the PVR from Adderley Green becomes so low it can no longer sustain itself? Each cut requires each remaining bus to contribute a greater portion of overheads.
Regarding the 99. I could be mistaken but I read the new timetable to suggest it becomes a Newcastle - Tunstall shuttle only. The Tunstall - Chell Heath portion removed and no replacement for the 72/A.
All it really does is makes the bus service unviable to use for the working person (ie those that pay the fares) and only just about useful for ENCTS holders doing a bit of shopping.
What happened to the Stoke on Trent bus service improvement plan (BSIP) that should have improved things? That seems to have gone very quiet.
I wonder at what point the PVR from Adderley Green becomes so low it can no longer sustain itself? Each cut requires each remaining bus to contribute a greater portion of overheads.
Regarding the 99. I could be mistaken but I read the new timetable to suggest it becomes a Newcastle - Tunstall shuttle only. The Tunstall - Chell Heath portion removed and no replacement for the 72/A.
At some point the depot itself will become unviable due to size, not being fully utilised etc. You can cut the number of fitters etc to match the reduced fleet size but there comes a point when you are really an outstation rather than a 'head office' (for The Potteries) or a full service depot (also for The Potteries). First South Wales have Haverfordwest with a small number of buses and Carmarthen which appears (from Google) to be two portable demountable structures (Portacabin is a registered trademark ) and a surfaced yard. The question is how small can a proper 'depot' be and/or how close does an outstation need to be to its parent depot to be viable for swapping buses. In terms of The Potteries, where would you 'swap' buses with? Leicester and Manchester are a fair trundle away.
The same argument can be said for reduced running hours. Running a bus 20 hours, 7 days a week spreads costs across that period. Running just 12-14 hours per day (say 0600 to 2000) and for five or six days spreads fixed costs over a shorter period. Obviously there are reduced mileage based costs to factor in there.
The fleet appears to be declining by 10% per year since Mr Eggleton arrived in 2014 and commenced his service reviews - with lumps and bumps along the way as not all services are equal in PVR.
The 72/A is covered by amendments to the D & G 9 which will run via Stafford Avenue hourly or down to Clayton Village hourly and then both return via Westbury Park.
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All it really does is makes the bus service unviable to use for the working person (ie those that pay the fares) and only just about useful for ENCTS holders doing a bit of shopping.
What happened to the Stoke on Trent bus service improvement plan (BSIP) that should have improved things? That seems to have gone very quiet.
It does indeed seem to have gone very quiet on the BSIP. At the time of the announcement suggestions were that it would take until September to sort things out, do registration paperwork etc. Well, September is nearly here! Most of the measures were pretty bland if not wholly pointless anyway - a cheaper day ticket - city boundary only of course and not much use with few buses left to use it on and 'realtime' displays. Those displays that estimate waiting time based on the time taken by the previous 'x' number of buses - not much use when there are only three buses in the rotation and running every 30 minutes. Better to give money to bustimes.org and have a branded app and cheaper to give smart phones to those without. Bustimes is a far better system where you can see where your actual bus is rather than some mathematical prediction.
The council did eventually publish its BSIP, and it contained vague suggestions of unspecified improvements to frequencies on unspecified routes and at an unspecified point in the future. I remember one LTP (Local Transport Plan) promising to define a high frequency network (buses every 10 minutes 0600 to 1800), that never appeared either.
I wonder at what point the PVR from Adderley Green becomes so low it can no longer sustain itself? Each cut requires each remaining bus to contribute a greater portion of overheads.
Regarding the 99. I could be mistaken but I read the new timetable to suggest it becomes a Newcastle - Tunstall shuttle only. The Tunstall - Chell Heath portion removed and no replacement for the 72/A.
On the 18th August they used 69 buses all day, 2 more in the am/pm peaks and one bus did a single journey in the afternoon. Add to that 5 vehicles for Painsley Academy - obviously not required at the moment. That is going off bustimes.org data so may be subject to glitches. I didn't look to see if every journey on every route was covered but 69 is what I expected it to be off-peak.
Other operators require 50 vehicles off-peak (most are D & G) so not long to go until First cease to provide the majority of services and perhaps even become the number two operator in terms of size.
I haven't looked at the end of September picture other than a quick scan of the timetables. I'll wait until at least the 5 September so the online timetables are easier to read (ie without the date related clutter for two sets of changes).
All it really does is makes the bus service unviable to use for the working person (ie those that pay the fares) and only just about useful for ENCTS holders doing a bit of shopping.
Interestingly, ENCTS is the one thing that makes routes unviable and so shaping a route for ENCTS does nothing to help, it infact makes it worse. You need paying passengers for a route to be viable, not bus full of passes.
Wasn't Stokes BSIP the one which included building new roads, which buses wouldn't use, with the supposed aim of 'reducing bus journey times with less traffic heading through the centre' (in other words, their plan was to make car journeys faster and that just so happens to make buses faster. Ignoring the whole induced traffic arguement/logic)
Service 94 (Congleton-Newcastle) is operated commercially by D&G. It is a cross-boundary route, and I suspect that neither Staffordshire nor Cheshire East councils were willing to subsidise it when D&G withdrew the Saturday service on commercial grounds. Others may be able to confirm or refute my suspicion.
Noticed yesterday that 63146 has now had vinyls applied to finish off the mainline livery. It whizzed past me on service 6 and didn't take it all in but there was mention of the frequency, which is increasing from the end of September. This may explain the delay in getting these applied.
Wasn't Stokes BSIP the one which included building new roads, which buses wouldn't use, with the supposed aim of 'reducing bus journey times with less traffic heading through the centre' (in other words, their plan was to make car journeys faster and that just so happens to make buses faster. Ignoring the whole induced traffic arguement/logic)
I think they took out the section about welding bus doors up, so passengers couldn't board, as that would make journeys faster too. Or buying a fleet of foreign, left-hand drive buses so passengers would be too confused to find the doors anyway.
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Noticed yesterday that 63146 has now had vinyls applied to finish off the mainline livery. It whizzed past me on service 6 and didn't take it all in but there was mention of the frequency, which is increasing from the end of September. This may explain the delay in getting these applied.
You could say Cheadle and Tean benefit from First going as the new timetable will create a even 30 min headway rather than the current uneven service. It also re introduces the former 32A.
First's changes by service (more cuts):
3/3A - returns to every 10 min to Kidsgrove on weekdays. Last evening bus now 1935 from Hanley
4/4A - 4 only runs to Crackley and on Sundays only as far as Newcastle
6/6A - evening services removed. Last bus now 2000 weekdays, 1905 Saturdays and 1730 Sundays
7/7A - both reduced to hourly daytime only and Sunday service removed
8 - Saturday service removed but will be covered by D&G
11, 11B - increased to every 10 min on Weekdays. Sundays re times by up to half an hour.
18 - Runs 5 mins later. Last service from Leek removed and first to Leek on Saturdays. Sundays removed.
21 - departs Hanley 5 mins later
23 - arrives into Hanley 5 mins later
25 - increased to every 12 min on weekdays. Last buses now 2100 on weekdays, 2000 Saturday and 1930 on Sunday.
KF(32) - withdrawn and replaced by D&G 32, 32A and 32X
37 - no change
72/72A - withdrawn and combined with the 99
98 - Saturdays will run between Newcastle and Porthill only.
99 - extended to Chell Heath to cover the 72/72A. Saturday service withdrawn.
101 - weekday services re-timed in Stafford. Last service from Hanley 1800, 1830 from Stafford to Hanley and 1920 to Stone. Sundays withdrawn.
All of the timetables are available ob the Traveline South West site - look under timetables rather than plan a journey.
Reference to the 98/99 being extended to Clayton was mentioned up thread, with a source of a 'facebook user group', the timetables show no such extension.
Obviously things may get amended between now and the 25th September.
I have been travelling recently on either the 20.30 3 or the 21.30 3A, in the week day towards Kidsgrove.
Loadings around 15 to 20 people.
So is surprised if those journeys get axed.
Many of the First Potteries changes previously 'publicised' for 25 September have been reversed. Withdrawal of 32 (Kingfisher), 72 and 8 (Saturdays) continue, mostly replaced by D & G, 72 on Sundays being the exception. A Sunday service on the 32 will be retained, operated by D & G. Latest versions are on Traveline South West, plus a proper composite 32/A/X timetable is on D & G's website.
Another return is a Sunday service on the 5 - not provided since being taken over by D & G in April. Timings convenient to interwork with the 32.
Many of the First Potteries changes previously 'publicised' for 25 September have been reversed. Withdrawal of 32 (Kingfisher), 72 and 8 (Saturdays) continue, mostly replaced by D & G, 72 on Sundays being the exception. A Sunday service on the 32 will be retained, operated by D & G. Latest versions are on Traveline South West, plus a proper composite 32/A/X timetable is on D & G's website.
Another return is a Sunday service on the 5 - not provided since being taken over by D & G in April. Timings convenient to interwork with the 32.
Thanks for small mercies. The lack of a 5 on Sunday was puzzling, loadings were always reasonable in peak shopping hours and I'm sure there's at least some money to be made.
Many of the First Potteries changes previously 'publicised' for 25 September have been reversed. Withdrawal of 32 (Kingfisher), 72 and 8 (Saturdays) continue, mostly replaced by D & G, 72 on Sundays being the exception. A Sunday service on the 32 will be retained, operated by D & G. Latest versions are on Traveline South West, plus a proper composite 32/A/X timetable is on D & G's website.
Another return is a Sunday service on the 5 - not provided since being taken over by D & G in April. Timings convenient to interwork with the 32.
The midland classic changes last week were not on the website until the week before. Maybe it is not up yet because not everything is set in stone yet?
Now D&G will be going to Uttoxeter, I wonder if they will consider a joint ticket with the Chaserider division as that then gives 32X connections onto the 432.
Now D&G will be going to Uttoxeter, I wonder if they will consider a joint ticket with the Chaserider division as that then gives 32X connections onto the 432.
Why bother? Virtually no one would connect between the Stoke-Uttoxeter (32/32A/32X) and Stafford-Uttoxeter (841) bus services at Uttoxeter. Chaserider service 432 runs from Stafford to Eccleshall.
Now D&G will be going to Uttoxeter, I wonder if they will consider a joint ticket with the Chaserider division as that then gives 32X connections onto the 432.
I have been travelling recently on either the 20.30 3 or the 21.30 3A, in the week day towards Kidsgrove.
Loadings around 15 to 20 people.
So is surprised if those journeys get axed.
I've noticed that for the last few years the 20.30 journey from Hanley has only gone as far as Radway Green whereas I'm sure that previously it went all the way to Crewe and then came back in service. Got a feeling this change occured in March 2020 when....you know what happened.
Does this suggest that there is not a demand for a service all the way from Hanley to Crewe at this time of the evening?
Why bother? Virtually no one would connect between the Stoke-Uttoxeter (32/32A/32X) and Stafford-Uttoxeter (841) bus services at Uttoxeter. Chaserider service 432 runs from Stafford to Eccleshall.
That was the same with D&G, Midland Classic and Select who had their agreement in place (prior to the Chaserider purchase) with the only link being Uttoxeter between the 841 and the Midland Classic Uttoxeter services and the D&G link to Select at the time was limited I believe to just Stafford with the few routes they ran then. This is no different really to bringing back the older ticket acceptance that only got lost because the connection opportunities were useless. (If it currently available, I believe the only connection would be in Stone from the D&G 100 onto the Select 103 which isn't the best connection and would have even less people than the 841/32/32A/32X connection).
From Sunday 25 September, we're making changes to most of our services following an in-depth review of our network. New timetables will be available to view on our website soon Frequencies given are for Monday to Friday daytimes. We've listed the main changes below, but for most services there...
First changes now listed. As reported above, Kingfisher, 72(A) & Saturday 8 withdrawals proceed, 3/4/25 service uplift proceed, other service reductions cancelled. I wonder if it was a ‘who blinks first’ scenario with the Local Authorities who may have finally stepped in?
No reference to the D&G replacements where provided which is poor. On D&G, while their replacement 32X/A is an improvement on their current offering, the timetable throws up some questions. Journeys are timed up to 8 minutes faster than Kingfisher on the like for like journeys via Kingsley and the existing 32X is similarly sped up somehow. I also wonder if there’ll be some vehicle swaps with Cannock as it may be hard graft for Longton’s motley collection of Optares.
Changes are being made to fares and tickets from Sunday 25 September Lower adult single fares. New adult return fares introduced. New 3-Day & 5-Day tickets added to the on-bus ticket range. No changes to the young person fares & tickets. Current Price New Price New Return Fare £1.00 £0.90...
Also of note is this fare announcement. Single fares are reduced ever so slightly. I find an odd as I would have thought there’s be incentive to raise fares ahead of the £2 cap to influence any repayment formula. Unless it’s BSIP money in which case it’s a truly pitiful waste.
In any case, increases to day, week and month tickets punish loyal customers. 3 month and annual passes are withdrawn from sale which I hope isn’t a reflection on First’s long term plans for Potteries.
In any case, increases to day, week and month tickets punish loyal customers. 3 month and annual passes are withdrawn from sale which I hope isn’t a reflection on First’s long term plans for Potteries.
First changes now listed. As reported above, Kingfisher, 72(A) & Saturday 8 withdrawals proceed, 3/4/25 service uplift proceed, other service reductions cancelled. I wonder if it was a ‘who blinks first’ scenario with the Local Authorities who may have finally stepped in?
No reference to the D&G replacements where provided which is poor. On D&G, while their replacement 32X/A is an improvement on their current offering, the timetable throws up some questions. Journeys are timed up to 8 minutes faster than Kingfisher on the like for like journeys via Kingsley and the existing 32X is similarly sped up somehow. I also wonder if there’ll be some vehicle swaps with Cannock as it may be hard graft for Longton’s motley collection of Optares.
Also of note is this fare announcement. Single fares are reduced ever so slightly. I find an odd as I would have thought there’s be incentive to raise fares ahead of the £2 cap to influence any repayment formula. Unless it’s BSIP money in which case it’s a truly pitiful waste.
In any case, increases to day, week and month tickets punish loyal customers. 3 month and annual passes are withdrawn from sale which I hope isn’t a reflection on First’s long term plans for Potteries.
I guess the initial changes were connected with the withdrawal of the Covid bus grant. The announcement that it was to be retained came after the deadline for registering changes with the Traffic Commissioner. Thus companies had to plan on the basis of there being no support, review their operations on that basis and then register those changes - a nationwide situation. Bods holding the purse strings not being aware of, or caring about, the implications to others of not getting a decision out in a timely manner. The same applies in London where the latest funding support announcement is always at the last minute. Leaving the announcement to the very the last minute allows you to posture that tough negotiations have been taking place right up to the wire.
How much The Potteries changes are to do with the Bus Service Improvement Plan remains to be seen. It was meant to be reduced fares and other things, the fares being a cheaper day ticket.
The fact that D & G seized the opportunity and leapt onto the 32 on a commercial basis, thus making it difficult for First to re-register their own service (not enough business for both to operate on the route), may be the reason First are being stroppy over mentioning it on their website. It was suggested at the time that First weren't best pleased when D & G filled in the gaps when the 32 was reduced to hourly.
The fares announcement is 'interesting'. The table shows a vast range of fares, in reality First Potteries only use £1.50, £1.90, £2.30, £2.70, £3.00, £5.50 and £6.00 across the network. Perhaps it is a national table, or perhaps they are finally reversing the disaster that was the '£1 flat fare' from 20 years ago! The discount for a return is not exactly generous - being a maximum of 10% compared to buying two single fares. That level of discount would not make me captive to First if I lived on a route where there was competition.
Three month and annual tickets (Potteries zone) are only sold at the travel shop (and Newcastle council?). Removal of these would allow the travel shop to close* or become National Express only. Three month Network is also (currently) available as an m-ticket and Annual Network is available on-line.
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Looking at the fares in more detail.
The Potteries zone day, week and month ticket prices have been aligned to those of the Smart ticket prices. Smart being the multi-operator ticket valid across North Staffordshire on Arriva, D & G, First and Scraggs buses. Perhaps the captive First ticket will be removed? After all, why pay the same for a single operator ticket as a multi-operator ticket? Three month Smart tickets can be bought but annual ones only by the precious workers of approved companies.
Weekly, monthly, three-month and annual tickets are available. The annual pass is only available to adults paying by Direct Debit and working for certain, approved companies in the city.
) and a surfaced yard. The question is how small can a proper 'depot' be and/or how close does an outstation need to be to its parent depot to be viable for swapping buses. In terms of The Potteries, where would you 'swap' buses with? Leicester and Manchester are a fair trundle away.
www.firstbus.co.uk
www.firstbus.co.uk
