Staff on Empty Stock Moves

[whhistle]

Is it common practice for staff to travel on empty stock moves?

 

[Tooktook]

It is at my toc. An easy way to get to or from the depot. Only stipulation is to get there in good time, wear a hi vi and make the driver aware of your presence.

 

[sw1ller]

Ours are booked moves. You need to know if a guard is on as they aren’t cleared to walk around the depot so must drop them off on a platform first.

 

[221129]

Yes it is here too. For TMs and caterers.

 

[trentside]

Likewise, we have a few turns where we're booked to pass on an ECS service.

 

[83G/84D]

Are there still any staff halts in use? There used to be some in the south east and probably elsewhere.

There is one at Hoo Junction.

 

[Monty]

Is it common practice for staff to travel on empty stock moves?

Happens on a daily basis at the TOC I work for.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I am going to seem really stupid here, but if you have a train with a full compliment of staff, why is it running empty? I appreciate there is clearly an obvious answer, but it's eluding me right now!

 

[gazthomas]

I am going to seem really stupid here, but if you have a train with a full compliment of staff, why is it running empty? I appreciate there is clearly an obvious answer, but it's eluding me right now!

To and from depot, pathing issues, etc.

 

[Eccles1983]

I am going to seem really stupid here, but if you have a train with a full compliment of staff, why is it running empty? I appreciate there is clearly an obvious answer, but it's eluding me right now!

Not many passengers want to travel at 0330hrs from the maintence depot direct to the outer reaches of your network - no stops normally to stations that are closed to the public when you arrive.

Most of the ECS moves with staff happen at a very early time, and because they are ECS they can be put into goods loops - no passenger services are allowed in them normally.

 

[Mojo]

I am going to seem really stupid here, but if you have a train with a full compliment of staff, why is it running empty? I appreciate there is clearly an obvious answer, but it's eluding me right now!

And further to the answers given already, it might not be fully staffed, for instance on routes/Tocs/stock that requires a guard certain moves might not have one diagrammed.

It might also be a timetabling issue, for example on LU extra time has to be given to carry out a detrainment if going into a sidings or depot, so some are timetabled to run empty.

 

[Bellbell]

With just staff on board the move can be rerouted without any problems - I know of one ECS move that can go via any one of four different routes, which allows route retention and also flexibility around engineering. If it was run as a passenger service you'd lose that flexibility. Plus of course the cancellation of ECS services has no knock on effects whereas if it was a passenger service the TOC would have to provide an alternative. I know another ECS service that is a positioning move for the guard; if the diagram can't be covered by the normal depot it can be cross covered and started from the destination of the ECS, which wouldn't be possible if the ECS move was a passenger service.

 

[tsr]

Ours are booked moves. You need to know if a guard is on as they aren’t cleared to walk around the depot so must drop them off on a platform first.

Your guards are soft... I know several who sign at least two large depots and various random sidings here, there and everywhere!

Are there still any staff halts in use? There used to be some in the south east and probably elsewhere.

There is one at Hoo Junction.

For starters, Battersea Pier, and also Wimbledon Park (AFAIK it’s still available...).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Wimbledon Park (AFAIK it’s still available...).

Yes, Durnsford Road staff halt at Wimbledon is still in use.

The first train of the day from Epsom is booked to call there - which makes it a good one for people who like to scratch particular crossovers in their track atlas...

 

[LowLevel]

We have plenty of work that involves guards and other staff members on ECS moves (trains coming out of service usually need either the guard or a member of platform staff to dispatch them anyway).

We can also go on the depot etc with a driver present to route conduct on the walking routes, there's a few places where we sign them in our own right though (Etches Park for example regularly has Derby traincrew boarding in the sidings and Boston guards set the points in the sidings there).

 

[sw1ller]

Your guards are soft... I know several who sign at least two large depots and various random sidings here, there and everywhere!



For starters, Battersea Pier, and also Wimbledon Park (AFAIK it’s still available...).

Agreed

 

[craigybagel]

With just staff on board the move can be rerouted without any problems - I know of one ECS move that can go via any one of four different routes, which allows route retention and also flexibility around engineering. If it was run as a passenger service you'd lose that flexibility. Plus of course the cancellation of ECS services has no knock on effects whereas if it was a passenger service the TOC would have to provide an alternative. I know another ECS service that is a positioning move for the guard; if the diagram can't be covered by the normal depot it can be cross covered and started from the destination of the ECS, which wouldn't be possible if the ECS move was a passenger service.

Funnily enough both those exact situations apply at my depot. ECS to pick up another service when you could use a guard from the depot there, and a different ECS that's booked to use any one of 3 different routes depending on the day of the week (with 3 seperate departure times as a result) and a 4th (the normal "mainline" route) available if required.

Your guards are soft... I know several who sign at least two large depots and various random sidings here, there and everywhere!

Most guards at my depot don't sign the very large TMD just outside the station, or indeed any other depot (and the small group who do are about to lose it off their cards). The guards at a depot 30 miles down the line however do all sign our local TMD. Every morning one of their guards gets taxied up to our station to go to the depot to prep a particular traction that we don't sign - meanwhile, 2 of our guards pass them going the opposite direction traveling pass on a service train (or ECS on Saturday) to start their day working from the station where that other depot is located.

Such is the railway....

 

[FordFocus]

There are some TOCs that are keen on the reduction of route knowledge to save on training time and route refresh days if there is no booked work over the route. So you may get the scenario of only certain drivers signing ECS moves back or the guard signing none of the route.

At my TOC there was an ECS train that regularly got altered for stabling reasons or engineering works. An office bod one day decided to make it a passenger train but it was regularly changed to a bus for all or part of the journey. In the end the costs didn't justify changing the service.

 

[philthetube]

On the underground it is not uncommon for someone to ask for a lift into the depot to be told "yes if you take it in , thanks" after a call to a manager of course.

 

[Shunter_69]

Depot staff at Ilford often jump on ECS moves to Liverpool Street or other destinations to get home.

 

[muz379]

We have some empty stock moves which take a number of guards and drivers to certain places to position them for first services of the day or to bring them to their home depot from last services of the day .

We also have the odd cleaner or fitter who uses empty stock to get to and from depots to work but its a less regular thing , not booked and technically unless a guard is provided not allowed .

The stock moves I regularly travel on are fairly often booked over routes which I dont sign as a guard so having them run in passenger service even as just express end to end services would not be possible without diagramming extra staff , nobody at my depot signs some of the routes we travel over and in some of the cases there are no guards at any depot who sign some of the routes because they are not used by any of our trains in passenger service so diversions would then involve planning replacement buses .
The fact that the service can be diverted at the last minute for issues like overrunning engineering works or other incidents also lessens the risk of disruption to the first services of the day and gives control one less thing to think about when these services are being diverted at the last minute .

Many of the stock moves with the correct amount of staff are also very late night/early morning so would not have a great deal of demand for passengers either . Having to run a replacement bus every time there are engineering works for a service that is likely to carry nobody is wasteful .

 

[JoeGJ1984]

As an aside, it's been mentioned here before that some early morning or late night trains have 'undocumented' stops on a passenger service, but a passenger could use them if they were in the know. I think there's one at Queen's Park and is the only service to use the fast platforms (?). I think they don't put it in the timetable in case engineering work requires them to skip the call, so they don't have to provide alternative transport.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It may be common practice for staff to utilise ECS or Ety. runs but they are not guaranteed to operate so unless it is a booked run (which means it is a staff train and not ECS or Ety) you run the risk of not making your pick up if you rely on one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside, it's been mentioned here before that some early morning or late night trains have 'undocumented' stops on a passenger service, but a passenger could use them if they were in the know. I think there's one at Queen's Park and is the only service to use the fast platforms (?). I think they don't put it in the timetable in case engineering work requires them to skip the call, so they don't have to provide alternative transport.

I believe that one has now gone, but it did exist for a very long time.

It was also the case that the 01whatever and 03whatever Manchester to Blackpool trains were set-down only all the way, they were shown as "Staff Train" on the screens. The reason was presumably so that a bustitution, as was frequently required, was simplified.

 

[LAX54]

I am going to seem really stupid here, but if you have a train with a full compliment of staff, why is it running empty? I appreciate there is clearly an obvious answer, but it's eluding me right now!

ECS: Non-Revenue earning service, also can be cancelled / diverted with a few minutes notice / High on passenger mileage, any number of reasons that an ECS can be cancelled at a moments notice, so not much good for a passenger timetabled service

 

[CharlieSpotted]

As an aside, it's been mentioned here before that some early morning or late night trains have 'undocumented' stops on a passenger service, but a passenger could use them if they were in the know. I think there's one at Queen's Park and is the only service to use the fast platforms (?). I think they don't put it in the timetable in case engineering work requires them to skip the call, so they don't have to provide alternative transport.

It's a bit OT this, but for a while there was (is?) a Virgin service from London Euston to Wolverhampton, after all other services had finished, which doesn't show on the screens at New Street. But it does show on the platform staff's tablets, and one used to be able to get it from New Street to Wolves if you knew about it. I was never sure why it didn't appear on the departure boards at New Street, I had thought it was that so people didn't grow to rely on it as the last train home?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This one?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81121/2018/01/31/advanced

I believe it ran set-down only at all stations past Euston in order that it didn't have to wait for time if it got a fast run to MKC (it's scheduled an hour because it sits behind a stopping service as the WCML is 2-track at that point). Therefore it could run up to half an hour early. At one point I have a feeling it ran via Northampton too.

It now seems to run set down only on Sunday night-Monday morning only (doesn't run at all Saturday night-Sunday morning due to the long standing possession), no idea why that is! Perhaps it's to make any bustitution easier - just run one coach to each destination with no intermediates needing catering for.

https://online.adaresec.com/pt/virgin/VTDec17AB/

(That timetable shows it as starting at MKC, which is an error)

 

[CharlieSpotted]

This one?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y81121/2018/01/31/advanced

Yeah, that must be the one. I think it must have been Friday night/Saturday morning when I got it a couple of times. Nothing like a nice empty pendo to take you home at the end of a long night!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

...

https://online.adaresec.com/pt/virgin/VTDec17AB/

(That timetable shows it as starting at MKC, which is an error)

Given that printing that service like that has happened for years I suspect it is intentional, they just omit the stations called at before midnight! The same applies with the mysterious 0001 Stockport to Man Picc and 0004 Runcorn to Liverpool Lime St shown in tables D and E!