Stadler Flirt best modern train?

[cambsy]

Having had another day out in East Anglia on the 745 & 755 Flirts, I personally feel these units are the best modern trains on the network, as other units etc been on feel more plasticky and not so well built, like the 195’s and 331’s, which while a good improvement on Pacers they replaced, feel not well built.

I would like see them replace several fleets like the 158’s on the Norwich-Liverpool run and Turbostar‘s on Cross Country, as Turbostar‘s feel sluggish and slow.

Do people think Flirts are best modern trains or are the other contenders?.

 

[150249]

I disagree with the claim that 195/331 stock are "not well built". I personally quite like the feel of them.

However, I do agree that the FLIRTs are in a different league and are far far better trains. Something like the 397 or 390 could challenge them, but I think, all considered, FLIRTs are the best of the lot, especially Greater Anglia's units.

 

[tfw756rider]

Having already travelled on 231s since 2023 and my namesake 756s since 2024, on the 11/3/25 I was ga755rider and finally tried out 755338 Peterborough-Ely and 755410 Ely-Peterborough, and I was very impressed!

I think that impression was because of the nicer "regional" rather than "suburban" interiors, with carpeted (rather than lino) floors, and I was pleasantly surprised with how good the condition of the interiors still was for 6+ year old units. I'm looking forward to trying out Class 745 sometime.

The level boarding (231s/745s/755s/756s) and "power pack" vehicles (231s/755s/756s) are unique things they have.

On the other hand, despite the "cheapness" and flaws, I do like the CAF Civity DMUs (195s/196s/197s) because they continue the "172-style" engine/gearbox setup of MTU 1800 Series and 6-speed ZF, and I like the sound of them going up and down the gears, which means I like to ride them very much. But of course, no more of those are going to be made, being pure diesel trains.

So realistically, I'd be looking forward to trying out any subsequent UK Stadler FLIRT builds, as I think they're the best trains that "can still be made" (after the last few 197s finish build).

I think it would be nice to have more classes of UK Stadler FLIRTs, as so far there are only 4 (231, 745, 755 and 756) compared to the 5 Bombardier/Alstom Aventra classes (345, 701, 710, 720 and 730), 6 UK CAF Civity classes (195, 196, 197, 331, 397 and 897) and 7+ Hitachi AT300 "8xx" classes (800, 801, 802, 803, 805, 807, 810 etc.)

 

[ls2270]

Having had another day out in East Anglia on the 745 & 755 Flirts, I personally feel these units are the best modern trains on the network, as other units etc been on feel more plasticky and not so well built, like the 195’s and 331’s, which while a good improvement on Pacers they replaced, feel not well built.

I would like see them replace several fleets like the 158’s on the Norwich-Liverpool run and Turbostar‘s on Cross Country, as Turbostar‘s feel sluggish and slow.

Do people think Flirts are best modern trains or are the other contenders?.

Agree with you entirely…the Flirts are definitely my favourite current units!

 

[stadler]

They are good and built to a high quality but i would not say they are the best. I am a fan of most of their stuff as you can tell by my username but i would not say they are the best British train. I find the Mainland European version of the Stadler Flirt trains to be much nicer and this is one of my favourite trains but i am less of a fan of the British version of the Stadler Flirt trains.

My main issue with the Flirts are those annoying ramps going up and down the carriages at the ends and the step up to some seats at the ends of carriages so you do not get a flat floor throughout. I know this is common in Mainland Europe but the flat level floor throughout is one of things that makes British trains interiors a lot better than other countries and now this is slowly being removed from our trains. The interior of a flat floor train is so much nicer. I do not like the layout with steps up to seats at the ends and ramps at the ends. I wish they could have designed the Flirts with smaller wheels and smaller bogies (this is possible as the S Stock shows) to enable a fully flat floor throughout while remaining low floor.

My other main issue is that the Flirts feel a lot more cramped than many of our other trains. They definitely feel like they are much more narrow. I think this is partly due to being low floor (for level platform access) meaning that they had to make the carriages narrower to fit within the clearance. But on the Flirts in Mainland Europe you do not have this issue as they have a much wider loading gauge. As a result their Flirts feel a lot more spacious and less cramped than ours. I think the reduced amount of doors on the Flirts on GA also contributes towards a more cramped interior.

In my opinion the best UK train by far is the Desiro City (700/707/717) stock. That is by far the most spacious train. Really nice bright interior. Nice extra wide aisles. Very smooth good quality ride. I know the ironing board seats get complained about but that was the choice of the purchaser and not an issue with the train itself. Plus i have become so used to ironing board seats that i do not really mind them.

 

[William3000]

They are good and built to a high quality but i would not say they are the best. I am a fan of most of their stuff as you can tell by my username but i would not say they are the best British train. I find the Mainland European version of the Stadler Flirt trains to be much nicer and this is one of my favourite trains but i am less of a fan of the British version of the Stadler Flirt trains.

My main issue with the Flirts are those annoying ramps going up and down the carriages at the ends and the step up to some seats at the ends of carriages so you do not get a flat floor throughout. I know this is common in Mainland Europe but the flat level floor throughout is one of things that makes British trains interiors a lot better than other countries and now this is slowly being removed from our trains. The interior of a flat floor train is so much nicer. I do not like the layout with steps up to seats at the ends and ramps at the ends. I wish they could have designed the Flirts with smaller wheels and smaller bogies (this is possible as the S Stock shows) to enable a fully flat floor throughout while remaining low floor.

My other main issue is that the Flirts feel a lot more cramped than many of our other trains. They definitely feel like they are much more narrow. I think this is partly due to being low floor (for level platform access) meaning that they had to make the carriages narrower to fit within the clearance. But on the Flirts in Mainland Europe you do not have this issue as they have a much wider loading gauge. As a result their Flirts feel a lot more spacious and less cramped than ours. I think the reduced amount of doors on the Flirts on GA also contributes towards a more cramped interior.

In my opinion the best UK train by far is the Desiro City (700/707/717) stock. That is by far the most spacious train. Really nice bright interior. Nice extra wide aisles. Very smooth good quality ride. I know the ironing board seats get complained about but that was the choice of the purchaser and not an issue with the train itself. Plus i have become so used to ironing board seats that i do not really mind them.

I use class 700 and 755 trains regularly. I think the two are incomparable - 755s are inter-city quality, feel comfortable, clean, have tables and a high quality internal environment throughout with carpet, and well-maintained toilets.

Class 700s in comparison are austere, uncomfortable seating, lack tables, have a really cheap-looking interior, tatty toilets.

 

[D365]

My main issue with the Flirts are those annoying ramps going up and down the carriages at the ends and the step up to some seats at the ends of carriages so you do not get a flat floor throughout. I know this is common in Mainland Europe but the flat level floor throughout is one of things that makes British trains interiors a lot better than other countries and now this is slowly being removed from our trains.

For level boarding trains, it’s not possible to 100% drop the floors as the running equipment needs to go somewhere. Expect more of the same from other manufacturers when further new train fleets are introduced towards the end of this decade.

 

[stadler]

I use class 700 and 755 trains regularly. I think the two are incomparable - 755s are inter-city quality, feel comfortable, clean, have tables and a high quality internal environment throughout with carpet, and well-maintained toilets.

Class 700s in comparison are austere, uncomfortable seating, lack tables, have a really cheap-looking interior, tatty toilets.

I would not really call the 755s an intercity train. It is more of a regional train. I think in most of Mainland Europe the 755s would probably be described as a regional express train.

For level boarding trains, it’s not possible to 100% drop the floors as the running equipment needs to go somewhere. Expect more of the same from other manufacturers when further new train fleets are introduced towards the end of this decade.

It is possible as the S Stock has proved. The floor of the S Stock is the same height as the Flirt trains and yet it is fully flat throughout. You can make the wheels and bogies slightly smaller and still fit all the running equipment under the train which enables a fully flat floor with no steps or ramps.

 

[Harpo]

For level boarding trains, it’s not possible to 100% drop the floors as the running equipment needs to go somewhere

So, the step up to the train from the platform is eliminated but it gets replaced by a step up to many of the seats - and an opportunity to headbut the luggage rack later.

Flooring level changes are understandable but it needs solutions that don’t involve stumbling up a sudden ramp (777) or climbing other big steps inside.

 

[Magdalia]

Having had another day out in East Anglia on the 745 & 755 Flirts, I personally feel these units are the best modern trains on the network

I have travelled on class 745s but not class 755s yet. I don't like the class 745s, and will use a class 720 instead. The things that I particularly dislike are the undulating gangway and the risk of banging my head when getting out of many of the seats.

But lots of people clearly like them and they are also a victim of their own success. They don't work well when full, which is a lot of the time.

In my opinion the best UK train by far is the Desiro City (700/707/717) stock. That is by far the most spacious train. Really nice bright interior. Nice extra wide aisles. Very smooth good quality ride.

I prefer class 700s too, and for much the same reasons. The interior could do with a bit more colour, and the seats could do with a bit more cushioning, but the spaciousness and big windows are rare in modern rolling stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is possible as the S Stock has proved. The floor of the S Stock is the same height as the Flirt trains and yet it is fully flat throughout. You can make the wheels and bogies slightly smaller and still fit all the running equipment under the train which enables a fully flat floor with no steps or ramps.

Smaller wheels aren't generally good for high top speeds. However what is bad is that the Merseyrail units (which operate services basically the same as S stock) don't have fully flat floors, but the more I see of those (and I'm in the area this week) the more utterly terrible design and poor quality I see. They really are awful.

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I have travelled on class 745s but not class 755s yet. I don't like the class 745s, and will use a class 720 instead.

Wow. I don't think the UK FLIRTs are that good but I'd sit crosslegged on an open flat wagon over a 720, they really are horribly cramped. There are only 16 acceptable seats per unit, the facing ones at the cab ends which I guess would have been first class if they had had it and so are wider and spaced better.

 

[Zomboid]

So, the step up to the train from the platform is eliminated but it gets replaced by a step up to many of the seats - and an opportunity to headbut the luggage rack later.

Flooring level changes are understandable but it needs solutions that don’t involve stumbling up a sudden ramp (777) or climbing other big steps inside.

If you have to have a step up somewhere, it's better to have it once everyone is inside the train. Accessibility is extremely important, and affects us all at some point (I'm using lifts a lot more now I have a pushchair to deal with, for example).

Ideally you'd have level boarding and level interiors, but boarding is more important IMO.

 

[supervc-10]

I'm not quite sure I'd take an open flat wagon, but I'd agree that the 720s are unpleasant. I'm quite a wide shouldered guy (rugby build!), I physically don't fit in the window seats, and need the seat next to me to be empty because I take up half of it. Thankfully I don't commute on them but do get them from time to time (living in Stratford). If they had a 700 style interior they would be decent trains, IMO, but cramming in 5 abreast was a terrible idea. At least they have A/C and aren't filled with graffiti like the Central Line that I do commute on!

Aren't the FLIRTS designed for a 110mph max speed, whilst the S-Stock is 60?

Personally I'd give the 444s the 'best modern stock' title, although maybe they're too old to be 'modern'! In terms of the more recent stuff, I do like the FLIRTS. Only been on a 745, but level boarding is a gamechanger and something I think all stock should aim for (at least for part of the train). I think a single car having a 'dropped floor' like some units in Europe could be helpful for allowing good disabled access without too much issues with our dinky loading gauge.

The only truly low floor higher speed trains I can think of are Talgo sets. But given their rough ride, and the UK's somewhat variable track quality, I'm not sure I'd want to call for their introduction into the UK!

EDIT: @Zomboid commented as I was typing - totally agree with you. Level boarding is also *very* useful on services people take lots of luggage on - like the Stanstead Express. Having lugged bags on and off the Lizzie Line at both Heathrow and Stratford, I know which station I find easier! And I am very much able bodied thankfully. Accessibility benefits us all, not just those with a disability. There's also the saying that you're not disabled.... yet. The majority of us will develop some kind of disability or poor mobility at some point in our lives.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you have to have a step up somewhere, it's better to have it once everyone is inside the train. Accessibility is extremely important, and affects us all at some point (I'm using lifts a lot more now I have a pushchair to deal with, for example).

Ideally you'd have level boarding and level interiors, but boarding is more important IMO.

I think I lean towards the older idea of having a low floor vehicle with all the accessible stuff built into it with a drop between the bogies, but the rest of the train high floor and level. The undulating floor approach seems clumsy and like it or not is somewhat of a trip hazard, you see people stumbling on it on Merseyrail all the time, and I've stumbled on it myself - it's almost not obvious enough compared to a proper step. With regard to trams I think the Sheffield design of having a high floor power car between two low floor trailers (or vice versa) provides the best overall balance, whereas the new "snake" style fully low floor trams generally have impractical and clumsy layouts in comparison. It's only comparable to a double-decker bus which has accessibility features downstairs and a large flat floor with lots of seats upstairs, and nobody appears to be trying to get those banned.

With regard to stepped entrances I would lean towards the classic European (or Pacer) approach of a large, full sized stairway style step inside the vehicle with a proper handrail and the bottom of the step being at platform height. This is much more accessible than the narrow steps typical of UK trains, or even worse the Civity which just has a very high doorway with nothing bridging that height.

 

[Zomboid]

It's only comparable to a double-decker bus which has accessibility features downstairs and a large flat floor with lots of seats upstairs, and nobody appears to be trying to get those banned.

All low floor buses have that kind of layout, with the wheelchair and buggy spaces on the flat part and then seats elevated over the wheels/ engine area.

Ideally everything without be level boarding and flat floored, but if that's not possible then there should be a good proportion of level boarding - it's not only for wheelchair users, anyone with anything heavy or wheeled will benefit. As I've discovered since having children.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ideally everything without be level boarding and flat floored, but if that's not possible then there should be a good proportion of level boarding - it's not only for wheelchair users, anyone with anything heavy or wheeled will benefit. As I've discovered since having children.

It does make it slightly easier with luggage, true.

With regard to anything else wheeled like prams, bicycles, wheelchairs or whatever else you might have, those items (edit: or people in the case of wheelchair users) should only go in the designated spaces for them so there's no need on the grounds of those items to have low entry and flat floor to any other part of the train for them - if anything making it only easy to get them to the intended areas discourages them being put elsewhere e.g. in doorways.

I'd agree flat floor throughout is best if achievable, but it probably only is for units up to about 75mph due to wheel sizes. Above that I prefer the between-bogie drop approach than the clumsy constant up and down of the UK Stadlers.

 

[Zomboid]

agree flat floor throughout is best if achievable, but it probably only is for units up to about 75mph due to wheel sizes.

Class 220s have smaller wheels (716-780mm) than 345s (750-825mm). I realise that 345s aren't level boarding at normal platforms, it shows that you can build a 125mph train with pretty small wheels. Based on that, I imagine it would be possible to build a 125 mph train with level boarding at a 915mm platform and flat floors throughout if that was considered necessary.

Voyagers have a really big step up into them though, but I suspect that's because there's so much other gubbins under the floor.

 

[Trainbike46]

I would say the UK Flirt is the best UK train, as it is the only mainline UK train with Level boarding.

I do agree there are ways in which the design could be improved upon, and I do think the class 700 trains are very good for the services they operate on. However, in my view level boarding should be mandatory for all new trains, and I hope different manufacturers will introduce their take on this, and all manufacturers including stadler will look at ways to improve on their level boarding designs.

The 755s are a massive step up on what served those lines before (a mix of 170s, 153s, 156s, and mark II coaches), and they would be a massive improvement on 170s and 158s. This isn't just about level boarding, they are fast accellerating, bimode, and as far as I can tell, well built.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

Class 220s have smaller wheels (716-780mm) than 345s (750-825mm). I realise that 345s aren't level boarding at normal platforms, it shows that you can build a 125mph train with pretty small wheels. Based on that, I imagine it would be possible to build a 125 mph train with level boarding at a 915mm platform and flat floors throughout if that was considered necessary.

The Stadler smile high speed train seems to offer both a flat floor and level boarding at 550 and 760 mm. I'm not sure how they managed that, but it does suggest it should be possible for a UK 125mph train. Stadler offered a SMILE/FLIRT hybrid for the EMR IC that was won by the 810s, and I'm kind of sad they didn't win that, as it would be nice to see a 125mph level-boarding train on the network!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

Smaller wheels aren't generally good for high top speeds. However what is bad is that the Merseyrail units

The merseyrail units are of course not FLIRTS, they are METRO.

Wow. I don't think the UK FLIRTs are that good but I'd sit crosslegged on an open flat wagon over a 720, they really are horribly cramped. There are only 16 acceptable seats per unit, the facing ones at the cab ends which I guess would have been first class if they had had it and so are wider and spaced better.

If you don't think the FLIRTS are the best modern UK train, what do you think is better?

 

[QSK19]

Stadler offered a SMILE/FLIRT hybrid for the EMR IC that was won by the 810s, and I'm kind of sad they didn't win that, as it would be nice to see a 125mph level-boarding train on the network!

I am also disappointed that they didn’t win, especially with the ongoing debacle that we’re seeing with the 810 introduction.

Going for the FLIRT/SMILE would have also challenged the IC status quo - for me, Hitachi were too complacent in being the default IC manufacturer and it took until LNER’s CAF order in late 2023 to shake things up. But clearly EMR didn’t have the nerve to try something new which would have been revolutionary for the UK’s IC services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

The 755s are a massive step up on what served those lines before (a mix of 170s, 153s, 156s, and mark II coaches), and they would be a massive improvement on 170s and 158s. This isn't just about level boarding, they are fast accellerating, bimode, and as far as I can tell, well built.

Agreed. I hope these are cascaded to the East Midlands once GA/its future iteration has moved onto something else. 745s succeeding the 360s would also be excellent.

 

[irish_rail]

Personally found my experience of a 745 awful. Comparable to the commuter stock you get on the continent. OK for short distance, definitely not intercity. It's such a shame the 80x isn't fitted with decent passenger seating, because if it was I feel it wouldn't get nearly so much flak and negative comment, and would give us a national intercity fleet to be proud of.

 

[Trainbike46]

I am also disappointed that they didn’t win, especially with the ongoing debacle that we’re seeing with the 810 introduction.

Going for the FLIRT/SMILE would have also challenged the IC status quo - for me, Hitachi were too complacent in being the default IC manufacturer and it took until LNER’s CAF order in late 2023 to shake things up. But clearly EMR didn’t have the nerve to try something new which would have been revolutionary for the UK’s IC services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

I agree that isn't turning out particularly well.

Agreed. I hope these are cascaded to the East Midlands once GA/its future iteration has moved onto something else.

Personally I hope EMR (or its successor) will just order a fleet of new, well-built, level-boarding BEMUs to replace the regional fleet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you don't think the FLIRTS are the best modern UK train, what do you think is better?

Intercity style: Class 444 (by far the best), 397 (not a fan of the seats though) and 805/807 (specifically those as I dislike the seats in the others).
Regional style: Class 350
Commuter style: Class 730/0 or London Underground S8

Most of those of course aren't level boarding, and I do support level boarding. But I think the UK FLIRTs are all a compromise too far, having spent a bit of time on them now. What's been done is to squash a train designed for the European profile into the UK one, and it's created too many compromises like low luggage racks you can belt your head on, window views harmed by having the emergency window fitted to them, ramps which make people trip over them and the likes. There are just too many compromises. Add to that that the seat design (the FISA LEAN 1) is a very poor one, with a thick back that compromises legroom badly (though I believe the new LEAN 2 is a significant improvement here).

Most people can walk up steps as long as they're not massive (yes, you, CAF) and we aren't adopting a policy of removing staircases and escalators from stations as they move people much more efficiently than lifts. The Pendolino for instance has a very high step but a wide folding second step that helps people up it. The killer app isn't compromising the whole train to create level boarding at every door aside from metro applications (where the S8 clearly shows how to do it), but rather providing a multipurpose area with an accessible toilet, some seating and wheelchair and pram spaces with level access to that area. These excessive compromises ultimately lead to the terrible piece of design that is the modern low floor "snake like" tram.

As for the Class 777 it's just atrocious design. With the low top speed of these, they could easily have had a flat floor and level boarding throughout as per the S stock. But I really struggle to find very much about this unit that is well designed - they are full of bad design elements from start to finish, clearly led by one individual (who has posted here in the past) who really didn't have a clue, and produced a huge number of custom design elements in the unit, none of which, aside from the level boarding, are in any way better than the Class 730/0.

(Talking of 730/0s they do have one accessibility feature better than the 777 - you can wheel a wheelchair through the whole train, or at least I think you could - the way the ramps are on the 777 I doubt you could do it on those!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==

The merseyrail units are of course not FLIRTS, they are METRO.

They are and they aren't. All the underfloor stuff is METRO, but the body is much more FLIRT like than other METRO units. You can see for instance the clear commonality between the Tyne and Wear Metro 555s and the Berlin U-Bahn units, but not with these.

They're a totally custom job based on what one person (largely wrongly) thought would make a good train for Merseyrail, in my view. The level boarding is good, but I struggle to find much else good about them.

 

[QSK19]

Personally I hope EMR (or its successor) will just order a fleet of new, well-built, level-boarding BEMUs to replace the regional fleet!

Me too; however the DfT will never be that generous to EMR. Maybe you can put a letter of recommendation into the DfT… to say give us some FLIRTs please

 

[RailWonderer]

Most of those of course aren't level boarding, and I do support level boarding. But I think the UK FLIRTs are all a compromise too far, having spent a bit of time on them now. What's been done is to squash a train designed for the European profile into the UK one, and it's created too many compromises like low luggage racks you can belt your head on, window views harmed by having the emergency window fitted to them, ramps which make people trip over them and the likes. There are just too many compromises. Add to that that the seat design (the FISA LEAN 1) is a very poor one, with a thick back that compromises legroom badly (though I believe the new LEAN 2 is a significant improvement here).

I agree about the interior ramps as I used to stumble on them and I've also seen some people bonk their heads on the luggage racks but the emergency door on the window is a non-issue. It makes half of the window frame slightly thicker, and the East of England and the Welsh valleys are hardly picturesque viewing. The FISA doesn't offer as much legroom of the IET's Fainsa and the new Lumo/Avanti seat (the LEAN 2 I think) or any Grammar seating but they have a concave back allowing your legs to stretch a little and are better than a seat on European short haul. They are also far more comfortably cushioned than any other modern seat apart from the TfW Standard plus seat also used on the 397s and IETs (without the winged headrests).

Not to mention how smooth the ride is apart from some gentle swaying on poorer sections of track just south of Colchester where they go at 100mph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree about the interior ramps as I used to stumble on them and I've also seen some people bonk their heads on the luggage racks but the emergency door on the window is a non-issue. It makes half of the window frame slightly thicker, and the East of England and the Welsh valleys are hardly picturesque viewing.

It makes the view out less good. The Welsh Valleys are stunning - clearly you spend too much time there!

The FISA doesn't offer as much legroom of the IET's Fainsa and the new Lumo/Avanti seat (the LEAN 2 I think) or any Grammar seating but they have a concave back allowing your legs to stretch a little and are better than a seat on European short haul.

I don't think I would compare the seats on an intercity train (even one on a short run) to an aircraft. Aircraft are designed to go somewhere very quickly and for that we compromise on comfort.

The Avanti/Lumo seat isn't the LEAN 2. That hasn't been used yet, but is planned to be used on the Class 810 as its first application (I think) and also the HS2 units.

They are also far more comfortably cushioned than any other modern seat apart from the TfW Standard plus seat also used on the 397s and IETs (without the winged headrests).

I personally think them a poor clone of the Grammar E3000 used on most Desiros. But legroom is of number one importance to me as I am tall. If I don't fit I don't care how soft the base might be.

Not to mention how smooth the ride is apart from some gentle swaying on poorer sections of track just south of Colchester where they go at 100mph.

I thought it was a bit poor, though admittedly not as rough as the 397. The Merseyrail units' ride is pretty average to poor in places, one of the many ways in which they aren't very good. But to be honest anything rides badly compared to Classes 158 (low speed) and 221 (higher speed).

 

[William3000]

I am also disappointed that they didn’t win, especially with the ongoing debacle that we’re seeing with the 810 introduction.

Going for the FLIRT/SMILE would have also challenged the IC status quo - for me, Hitachi were too complacent in being the default IC manufacturer and it took until LNER’s CAF order in late 2023 to shake things up. But clearly EMR didn’t have the nerve to try something new which would have been revolutionary for the UK’s IC services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jun 2025 ==


Agreed. I hope these are cascaded to the East Midlands once GA/its future iteration has moved onto something else. 745s succeeding the 360s would also be excellent.

Why would they be cascaded? Why would East Anglia take priority over the East Midlands on new trains?

 

[Mike Machin]

I've not traveled on a UK FLIRT, but regularly have used the ones on Sørlandsbanen over the last nine or ten years and they are excellent.

 

[QSK19]

Why would they be cascaded? Why would East Anglia take priority over the East Midlands on new trains?

East Mids non-IC operations have never had new stock, instead the cascaded stock has been defective at best and utterly knackered & in need of scrapping at worst (eg one of the ex-GA 156s having corrosion holes in the shell and the horrific condition of the 15x when transferring from CT to EMT), so that isn’t a good omen. And when you think that EMR’s Regional routes minus Liverpool-Norwich account for just 5% of overall EMR revenue, the business case for new stock is practically non-existent.

The closest the East Mids would get to new non-IC stock is piggybacking off a much larger, wholesale 15x replacement (and even then it would probably get displaced stock to replace the 158s).

The business case numbers stack up more for East Anglia and, crucially, the timing of GA’s FLIRT order was when quality was a key criterion and DfT didn’t have a stranglehold over stock. These days, cost is everything and it took years to get the Connect/Regional refurbishment signed off, never mind new stock.

 

[BrianW]

Following a week around Norwich I'm a fan of the level boarding of the FLIRT. I've sat at a table on the raised section and found it ok, including getting in and out, esp with the audible reminder!

It certainly made a great change from the usual GWR and XC with huge and variable steps up and down at the platform.

The corridor through the power unit did feel narrow, but the 'zoning' of a marked 'diabled' section seemed good- hopefully these were located to 'land' against platform areas with a canopy to stay dry!

Was step-free accessible public transport ever a legal expectation? I understand the cost and difficulties involved, but then I don't have a stick or wheelchair or pram ....

Hoping GBR may bring better planning, procurement, platforms- i.e customer focus!

 

[dosxuk]

East Mids non-IC operations have never had new stock

Only if you don't count the original deployment of 170s