St Pancras to Harpenden

[YorkC]

I'm currently occasionally staying in Harpenden overnight after being in London -- so e.g. going from St Pancras on an evening, and returning from Harpenden to St Pancras the following day in the morning peak.

Unfortunately there's no Anytime Return from St Pancras to Harpenden, so I've been buying one from St Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway, which does have such a ticket. In fact (at an undiscounted £24), it's 10p cheaper than an Offpeak Return from St Pancras to Harpenden. I've just had a look around to see if I can spot anything that's cheaper than this, and stumbled upon Gospel Oak to Luton Airport Parkway, which seems to be valid as well, and is slightly cheaper at £23 (routed VIA WEST HAMPSTD).

Can anyone beat that? Thanks in advance.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm currently occasionally staying in Harpenden overnight after being in London -- so e.g. going from St Pancras on an evening, and returning from Harpenden to St Pancras the following day in the morning peak.

Unfortunately there's no Anytime Return from St Pancras to Harpenden, so I've been buying one from St Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway, which does have such a ticket. In fact (at an undiscounted £24), it's 10p cheaper than an Offpeak Return from St Pancras to Harpenden. I've just had a look around to see if I can spot anything that's cheaper than this, and stumbled upon Gospel Oak to Luton Airport Parkway, which seems to be valid as well, and is slightly cheaper at £23 (routed VIA WEST HAMPSTD).

Can anyone beat that? Thanks in advance.

I don't think that ticket is valid at St Pancras as you'd have to double back between West Hampstead and St Pancras.

 

[Abpj17]

Many Harpenden trains won't stop at West Hampstead, so can't see how its valid?

Carnets would be significantly better http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/carnet/

£51.50
Peak Carnet 5
Origin:London Thameslink
Destination:Harpenden
Dateun 21 Dec 2014
A book of Standard Class Single tickets for 5 journeys. The tickets are valid for 3 months from the date of issue.

(But of course only if you don't have some left at the end; but you could buy a peak book and an off-peak book if you sometimes travel out of peak) £103 for a book of 10 peak; £30 fo 5 off peak; £60 for ten off peak

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/overnighter/ would work if it were allowed for the stations...unfortuately you're going in the wrong direction!

 

[kieron]

I think I'm right in saying that the West Hampstead stations are separate stations. As such, a route such as Gospel Oak-Willesden Junction-Euston-St. Pancras-Luton Airport (using maps OV and MI) wouldn't double back at all, even if it's a little indirect.

And, while I suspect every Overground train stops at West Hampstead, this doesn't affect route validity so long as the train is scheduled to go the right way.

 

[causton]

Many Harpenden trains won't stop at West Hampstead, so can't see how its valid?

You will have to change at St Albans...!

The route via Euston and St Pancras looks alright to me, but you would have no chance getting on the Underground with that ticket!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Would the three mile rule not apply here, given that the walk between the two stations at West Hampstead is treated as zero miles. You'd also have a job on persuading the barrier staff at Euston to let you out.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think it would be reasonable to claim that the walk between Euston and St Pancras is somehow by rail, and not have the same apply to the walk between the West Hampstead stations.

 

[yorkie]

Would the three mile rule not apply here

I am not sure what you mean? However the shortest route is rather debatable one for a journey like this, as it depends on how 'shortest route' is interpreted.

If I was YorkC I wouldn't be trying to claim via London is the shortest route (which it may or may not be, depending on your interpretation!) but would instead be concentrating purely on the fact it's a mapped route.

given that the walk between the two stations at West Hampstead is treated as zero miles.

The shortest route is generally considered to be 'by rail' and not including walks. If a route requires a walk that would generally not be considered to form the shortest route by rail.

You'd also have a job on persuading the barrier staff at Euston to let you out.

I agree.

I don't think it would be reasonable to claim that the walk between Euston and St Pancras is somehow by rail, and not have the same apply to the walk between the West Hampstead stations.

Rightly or wrongly, London appears to be considered a 'special case'. If I recall correctly, someone involved with booking engines told me that ATOC consider the mileage between Euston & King's Cross (on LU) to form part of the mileage calculations for a journey that involves interchange at Euston/King's Cross.

 

[Haywain]

The shortest route is generally considered to be 'by rail' and not including walks. If a route requires a walk that would generally not be considered to form the shortest route by rail.

Then the debate here is what constitutes an interchange, and what constitutes a walk between stations. West Hampstead has always been seen as an interchange and where no cross London journey is provided in the ticket price I do not believe a walk between two other stations could ever make this West Hampstead a longer route.

Rightly or wrongly, London appears to be considered a 'special case'. If I recall correctly, someone involved with booking engines told me that ATOC consider the mileage between Euston & King's Cross (on LU) to form part of the mileage calculations for a journey that involves interchange at Euston/King's Cross.

Where the ticket includes a cross-London journey that would seem entirely reasonable, but the ticket for the journey in question clearly does not.

 

[YorkC]

If I was YorkC I wouldn't be trying to claim via London is the shortest route (which it may or may not be, depending on your interpretation!) but would instead be concentrating purely on the fact it's a mapped route.

Yeah, sorry for the lack of clarity -- this is what I was relying on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Many Harpenden trains won't stop at West Hampstead, so can't see how its valid?

Carnets would be significantly better http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/carnet/

£51.50
Peak Carnet 5
Origin:London Thameslink
Destination:Harpenden
Dateun 21 Dec 2014
A book of Standard Class Single tickets for 5 journeys. The tickets are valid for 3 months from the date of issue.

(But of course only if you don't have some left at the end; but you could buy a peak book and an off-peak book if you sometimes travel out of peak) £103 for a book of 10 peak; £30 fo 5 off peak; £60 for ten off peak

http://www.thameslinkrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/overnighter/ would work if it were allowed for the stations...unfortuately you're going in the wrong direction!

Thanks for this suggestion -- I've got a student railcard however, and carnets are generally not discountable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be honest, if this is likely to cause problems with barrier staff, I'll happily pay the extra quid a time instead. Thanks for your help.

 

[maniacmartin]

You can't have your cake and eat with by applying different walking rules for the shortest route at West Hampstead and at London.

Regarding mapped routes, the lack of a West Hampstead routeing group has struck me as a bit odd for a while, and it can result in some odd validities. If there is a mapped route into Euston (I have not personally checked) then I would say that it is valid, but probably not worth the hassle of getting through the gateline.

 

[RJ]

Via West Hampstead is intended to mean 'via West Hampstead but not via London.' I think London is an excluded location for the route in certain fares databases - but of course, this has no bearing on the actual validity.

 

[Abpj17]

Ah; you hadn't mentioned you had a railcard of any sort.