St Pancras Thameslink

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Just a very quick question. When the new Thameslink station was built why didn't Network Rail lay track through the new tunnel to the ECML? Surely it would have made sense to do all the work at the same time rather than cause yet more disruption later on?

Any responses would be very welcome!

Richmond Commuter!

 

[DXMachina]

ROCE - Return On Capital Employed, the universal measure for assessing the economic value of an investment.

To justify a massive spend you try to get as much as possible for as little as possible. This tends to rule out a lot of speculative additions - Also, it was several years ago? It would have been poor value for money to pay for anything that wouldnt be seriously needed for so long afterwards given that interest costs accrue from the date of the investment.

 

[RichmondCommu]

ROCE - Return On Capital Employed, the universal measure for assessing the economic value of an investment.

To justify a massive spend you try to get as much as possible for as little as possible. This tends to rule out a lot of speculative additions - Also, it was several years ago? It would have been poor value for money to pay for anything that wouldnt be seriously needed for so long afterwards given that interest costs accrue from the date of the investment.

Very true. I'm just curious to know why having gone to all the trouble to construct the tunnel that they didn't finish the job by putting the track through it? The tunnel itself was by far and away the most expensive bit!

 

[swt_passenger]

The main point was that the only sensible time to build the station box etc was during the St Pancras rebuild, so the box and underground junction was paid for by DFT as an advance item as part of the CTRL2 contract, as they wouldn't be able to go back and do it later.

However at that time Thameslink itself had not been given the go ahead, and you might recall there was a period of time when they did not intend to fit the station box out, it wasn't until they realised that the old Thamesink station would be a bit useless with HS2 passengers added to the numbers.

But even once the decision to fit out Midland Rd had been taken, it was still possible that the ECML link would never be used if the full project didn't happen, so there was no real point in putting in track or signalling. IIRC there was still doubt about Thameslink's ECML link following the change of government.

 

[RichmondCommu]

The main point was that the only sensible time to build the station box etc was during the St Pancras rebuild, so the box and underground junction was paid for by DFT as an advance item as part of the CTRL2 contract, as they wouldn't be able to go back and do it later.

However at that time Thameslink itself had not been given the go ahead, and you might recall there was a period of time when they did not intend to fit the station box out, it wasn't until they realised that the old Thamesink station would be a bit useless with HS2 passengers added to the numbers.

But even once the decision to fit out Midland Rd had been taken, it was still possible that the ECML link would never be used if the full project didn't happen, so there was no real point in putting in track or signalling. IIRC there was still doubt about Thameslink's ECML link following the change of government.

Many thanks for this, very interesting and a reminder of how uncertain the future was for the Thameslink upgrade. The new station certainly looks the business, as does Blackfriars.

 

[joeykins82]

I was on the platforms this weekend and the canal tunnels have been lit up so you can see in to them from the northern end of the platforms.

 

[ntg]

Yes, they've begun to make preparations for the fitting out it seems. At the portal near the ECML junction-to-be it looks like a large JCB is being used to clear the embankment between the tunnel and the ECML trackbed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn't someone post a good few months ago that the points at the St Pancras end had been installed, tested and then the crossing itself reverted to plain line, with the moving parts all stored, to avoid degradation of the wearing (lifed) components?

Presumably if that's the case it should be visible from the platforms?

 

[ole man]

The Trackwork and OLE will be started soon, Carillion will be doing Track, and Balfour Beatty will be doing OLE works, havent been down there for ages so it might of already started, chances to walk both tunnels have gone now i did both last year.
Has anybody got any pictures of any the tunnel faces since last year?.
Wasnt these tunnels built by Continental Railways during the construction of St Pancras International.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasnt these tunnels built by Continental Railways during the construction of St Pancras International.

Yes definitely, as I pointed out in last night's post!

 

[ole man]

Excuse my ignorance but i didn't read some of the responses, wasn't stealing your thunder.

 

[Class377/5]

Didn't someone post a good few months ago that the points at the St Pancras end had been installed, tested and then the crossing itself reverted to plain line, with the moving parts all stored, to avoid degradation of the wearing (lifed) components?

Presumably if that's the case it should be visible from the platforms?

Points were installed during various possessions last year. Track surveys for line have been completed and work is progressing.

There a few possessions on the ECML link with big one about March if I remember right to put points in on that side with link up made during now and end of 2014.

 

[thelem]

Even if plans could be perfectly predicted, they equipment would age - much better to install it rust free with the latest technology when it is needed.

 

[ntg]

Had a look last night and the connection to the Canal Tunnels to the MML isn't build yet from what I could see. The provisional timetable for work to be done is as follows:

ECML 2037 points – Week 01 (Easter 2013)
ECML 2033 Points – Week 09 (26 May – 31 May 2013)
MML – Canal Tunnel Junction – Week 10-12 (6June -16th June 2013
ECML Installation of the double Junction – week 25 (15th September 2013)
ECML/MML Final Commissioning – Week 46 & 50 (2nd Feb & 3rd March 2014

From here.

 

[cle]

So will they connect onto the slow/suburban lines coming from platforms 9-11? Is there any grade separation at that end?

What will happen with those platforms, which will see a reduction in services?

 

[Class377/5]

So will they connect onto the slow/suburban lines coming from platforms 9-11? Is there any grade separation at that end?

What will happen with those platforms, which will see a reduction in services?

There is a general reduction in services to Kibgs Cross as a result of th works.

Had a look last night and the connection to the Canal Tunnels to the MML isn't build yet from what I could see. The provisional timetable for work to be done is as follows:

ECML 2037 points – Week 01 (Easter 2013)
ECML 2033 Points – Week 09 (26 May – 31 May 2013)
MML – Canal Tunnel Junction – Week 10-12 (6June -16th June 2013
ECML Installation of the double Junction – week 25 (15th September 2013)
ECML/MML Final Commissioning – Week 46 & 50 (2nd Feb & 3rd March 2014

From here.

I've got a version of that. Think its a later version, will check as this one doesn't have the crossover on the track layout.

And note the use of Class 700. First offical document we've had with it on in public.

 

[greatkingrat]

I suppose they could move all Hull Trains / Grand Central services into the suburban platforms to free up some room in the main shed.

 

[A-driver]

I suppose they could move all Hull Trains / Grand Central services into the suburban platforms to free up some room in the main shed.

That indeed does seem to be the plan at the moment.

 

[swt_passenger]

Had a look last night and the connection to the Canal Tunnels to the MML isn't build yet from what I could see.

Your linked NCN refers to it having 'been plain lined' though (at para 1.1 of Appendix A), which seems to imply that they have had a test installation of the S&C and it has then been removed, (as I posted earlier).

Edited to add:

Here's a news article reporting how the work was done, this came out March last year so I expect the work was about a year ago now. The main photo shows the points in the up line.

http://www.therailengineer.com/2012/03/13/thameslinks-canal-tunnels/

The straight through track of the Switches and Crossings (S&C) was replaced by plain line fitted on adaptor baseplates so that railway operations could continue.

 

[D365]

@cle: Canal Tunnels are GS at both ends, would be very stupid if not the case. Moving OAOs to suburban 9-11 (10-12 when all platforms +1'd) would free up space in the main shed for EC/GN peaks. Sounds good.

 

[swt_passenger]

@cle: Canal Tunnels are GS at both ends...

They are definitely not.

It's a flat junction at the ECML, that has always been the intention. It's also clearly described as a flat double junction in the Network Change notice quoted in a couple of posts , and linked to earlier in the thread...

A flat junction layout is determined both by the topography and geometry of the existing infrastructure. A double junction will be installed to link the ECML Up Slow Line to the Up Canal Tunnel and the Down Canal Tunnel to the ECML Down Slow line.

 

[D365]

Whoops, another slip-up of mine :/

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

Flat double junction is far less of an issue at the KX end.

According to the network rail route specification there will be a reduction in suburban services using KX in the peaks:

2tph to Ely/Kings Lynn
2tph peak only to Peterborough
2tph to Welwyn Garden City

Currently it's:
4tph to Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn (7tph peak)
2tph to Peterborough (6tph peak)

There are 9 platforms (0-8) in the main shed which can easily cope with the 8tph peak LDHS. P9 is also accessible from the fast lines so it's only departing moves from 10 and 11 that would have to cause conflicting moves with trains to the core.



http://www.networkrail.co.uk/Network_Specifications.aspx

 

[cle]

So equally only P9 would be suitable for open access services in terms of accessing the fast lines without Thameslink conflicts?

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

So equally only P9 would be suitable for open access services in terms of accessing the fast lines without Thameslink conflicts?

Correct. Though 10 platforms (0-9) should be ample for the long-distance service aspiration

1tph Hull/Bradford/Sunderland OA or Lincoln
3tph Leeds/Yorkshire (4tph peak)
3tph Newcastle/Scotland

Even if the 2tph Ely/Kings Lynn go over to IEP and can't use 10/11 at all* then it's 10tph for 10 platforms, which is more than suitable capacity.

*though I believe Cambridge fasts don't use 10 or 11 presently anyway

 

[jon0844]

I've not seen a Cambridge fast on platform 10 or 11, nor a HT or GC 180 - but I have seen HT 180s on platform 9.

 

[A-driver]

*though I believe Cambridge fasts don't use 10 or 11 presently anyway

Some certainly do-many are diagrammed to use the stock of the 46's off peterbourgh which often use the suburban platforms.

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

My mistake. Never been on one go from 10 or 11

 

[Bald Rick]

Commissioning has been put back to mid 2015. Thus the St Pncras end gets commissioned straight into Three Bridges ROC rather than West Hampstead PSB and then recontrolled to TBROC. Saves a lot of effort and £.

 

[causton]

I've not seen a Cambridge fast on platform 10 or 11, nor a HT or GC 180 - but I have seen HT 180s on platform 9.

Seen a HT 180 on p10 - stabled though, but I assume it would have worked a service into platform 10!