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St Pancras - Leeds?

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quantinghome

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So the new Leeds-Sheffield fast(ish) service arrives at Sheffield just before a St Pancras train leaves, and leaves just after a St Pancras train arrives.

It seems like a no-brainer to combine the two together, and have a direct service from Leeds to St Pancras. Not that the end-to-end journey would be a particular selling point, but rather doubling the frequency of direct trains from Leeds to Derby and providing a new direct link from Leeds to Loughborough and Leicester.

It would also massively improve the quality and capacity compared to the trains working the Leeds-Sheffield service.
 
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skyhigh

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Where are the units going to come from for the extended service?
 

transportphoto

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A visit to the Customer Service booth at Leeds (on the bridge) and you’ll see an East Midlands Trains logo amongst the many operators displayed. This is a service which was withdrawn in Stagecoach days.
 

Magdalia

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Seems like a no-brainer to combine the two together, and have a direct service from Leeds to St Pancras.
It isn't a no brainer because it reduces service resilience for Sheffield-St Pancras passengers, and for Leeds-Sheffield passengers, just to save a few people from changing trains at Sheffield.
 

3141

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My recollection is that Midland Main Line ordered its 9-car class 222s for a Leeds to St. Pancras service, which it believed the then Strategic Rail Authority had approved. But it hadn't - or it changed its mind. So the class 222s were reformed (more than once) and replaced the HSTs on the Sheffield to London services.
 

Gwr12345

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I do think a Leeds to St Pancras service makes sense. Not for end-to-end journeys, but the intermediate ones to take the strain off XC on this section
 

Masbroughlad

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My recollection is that Midland Main Line ordered its 9-car class 222s for a Leeds to St. Pancras service, which it believed the then Strategic Rail Authority had approved. But it hadn't - or it changed its mind. So the class 222s were reformed (more than once) and replaced the HSTs on the Sheffield to London services.
100% correct. The 9 car 222s were, I believe, originally ordered to allow frequent Leeds to London St. Pancras.

Would have been good. In the early days of privatisation, when TOCs were allowed to be forward thinking!
 

43096

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This is a service which was withdrawn in Stagecoach days.
It wasn't withdrawn under Stagecoach. Leeds-St. Pancras and vv still ran under Abellio/EMR - they lasted until the end of HST operation as they were how the HST sets were cycled through Neville Hill for maintenance.
 

transportphoto

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It wasn't withdrawn under Stagecoach. Leeds-St. Pancras and vv still ran under Abellio/EMR - they lasted until the end of HST operation as they were how the HST sets were cycled through Neville Hill for maintenance.
Ahh, if I’m mistaken I apologise. Even more recent than I thought!
 

ainsworth74

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It wasn't withdrawn under Stagecoach. Leeds-St. Pancras and vv still ran under Abellio/EMR - they lasted until the end of HST operation as they were how the HST sets were cycled through Neville Hill for maintenance.
I feel like there was one token service that operated using a 222 even after the HSTs went but maybe only a for a few months after?
 

43074

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I feel like there was one token service that operated using a 222 even after the HSTs went but maybe only a for a few months after?
Yes there was a 1632 St Pancras to Leeds on weekdays which ran as a 222 until May 2022, returning as a 2040 Leeds to Derby. It was withdrawn at the same time as the York/Scarborough service on Saturdays.
 

Grimsby town

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Extending the St Pancras to Sheffield service to Leeds sounds like a pretty good idea in theory. It'd probably need additonal units but that could be spun as an early benefit of the government's investment in NPR.

More rollingstock is going to be needed to operate additonal fast services between Leeds and Sheffield after upgrades and electrification. I swear I read the other day that the plan was for the additonal Leeds-Sheffield services to also connect to the Midlands and beyond, so i read that as potentially extending the St Pancras to Sheffield services in the 2030s.

The main question is can a potential 5 or 10 car train be accommodated at Leeds and can the infrastructure between Sheffield and Leeds accommodate potential delays to that service.
 

quantinghome

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In response to the replies, obviously you'd need more rolling stock, but it's clear from previous plans that the idea has some merit.

I'd always thought the main issue with extending MML services to Leeds was capacity and fitting it into the timetable. But this doesn't seem to be a problem - as the recently launched 'fast' Leeds-Sheffield service shows. Also, this uses the through platforms at Leeds, so you're not limited to a short train length.
 

Bald Rick

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It seems like a no-brainer to combine the two together, and have a direct service from Leeds to St Pancras

Another example proving the use of the word “no brainer”

6 minute turn round at Leeds for a London service?
 

D365

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Yes there was a 1632 St Pancras to Leeds on weekdays which ran as a 222 until May 2022, returning as a 2040 Leeds to Derby. It was withdrawn at the same time as the York/Scarborough service on Saturdays.
I took advantage of the 2040 once or twice as a well-timed additional service via SHF.
 

yorksrob

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I lost interest at the point the HSTs finished!

I don't blame you !

When you had a couple in the morning down to St P and a couple in the evening back to Leeds, there generally seemed to be a fair few passengers to and from Leeds and Wakefield.
 

xotGD

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I don't blame you !

When you had a couple in the morning down to St P and a couple in the evening back to Leeds, there generally seemed to be a fair few passengers to and from Leeds and Wakefield.
There was one via Nottingham that was much, much faster than the Northern services from Leeds.

I lost interest at the point the HSTs finished!
I lost interest when they were introduced!
 

Railwaysceptic

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Another example proving the use of the word “no brainer”

6 minute turn round at Leeds for a London service?
Presumably, if this extended service was regarded as a serious contender, it's introduction would be delayed until after the next reconsideration of the whole Midland Main Line timetable, and that re-write would provide a longer turn round time at Leeds?
 

stevieinselby

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Presumably, if this extended service was regarded as a serious contender, it's introduction would be delayed until after the next reconsideration of the whole Midland Main Line timetable, and that re-write would provide a longer turn round time at Leeds?
The problem is the Leeds to Sheffield part of the service, not how it fits into the MML timetable. Leeds station is incredibly constrained, and the line between Leeds and Moorthorpe is incredibly constrained, so it's very likely that the only way to make those work is with a 6-minute turnaround at Leeds, regardless of what happens south of Sheffield.
 

ainsworth74

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The problem is the Leeds to Sheffield part of the service, not how it fits into the MML timetable. Leeds station is incredibly constrained, and the line between Leeds and Moorthorpe is incredibly constrained, so it's very likely that the only way to make those work is with a 6-minute turnaround at Leeds, regardless of what happens south of Sheffield.

You can sort of see how it would vaguely work it's just very resource inefficient. Currently you have one of the EMRs from London terminating at Sheffield at around xx42 (it moves by a minute or two depending on the exact service). There's then the fast Northern from Sheffield is at xx52 (again minor variation here and there). So plugging those paths together isn't particularly tricky. For the return leg there's an EMR back to St Pancras from Sheffield at xx35 and the Northern fast path from Leeds arrives at xx31 (again odd minute or two difference) so it wouldn't be particularly tricky to plug those together either.

The issue is those six minute turn arounds at Leeds which are wholly unsuitable for a long distance service both from a reliability perspective but also just cleaning/restocking it before sending it south again.

The only solution to that (without recasting the whole Leeds timetable to try and make this fit) would be for in effect each service to be a step back to the next service so the unit from London that arrives in Leeds at say 1238 would instead form the 1345. But a) there ain't no way your finding a through platform that you can occupy for that long at Leeds, b) if you want a bay platform instead (which you might find, maybe if you're lucky) you've got to ladder over a lot more of the alignment than you do for the current platform 12 arrangement, and c) it's a horrendous use of a precious unit it twiddle it's thumbs (or I guess auto-couplers?) for an hour.

I think it's a nice idea to have Leeds with additional links to places like Derby and new links to somewhere like Leicester as well as another direct London service. Plus you can see how it would work because there is actually a way of lumping existing services together to make it work (in theory, I feel like I might have someone like @Bald Rick looming threateningly over my shoulder for lumping services together like this and going "Ta da! It works!" :lol:).

But just from a resource perspective it doesn't seem like the juice is going to be worth the squeeze. How do you make the case for the extra 810s that would been needed to let them spend 2.5hrs+ going from Sheffield to Leeds and back (which is what would happen without a recast of the timetable to find a way of giving them a better turn around at Leeds)? Right now they spend 20/30 minutes in Sheffield and go straight back down the MML, i.e. on their core stomping ground.

Nice idea but I reckon the practicalities just make it impossible.
 

Halish Railway

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It isn't a no brainer because it reduces service resilience for Sheffield-St Pancras passengers, and for Leeds-Sheffield passengers, just to save a few people from changing trains at Sheffield.
Not entirely. The great benefit would be the additional capacity it could open up at Sheffield. It would reduce the length of time that the through platforms would be occupied and would remove a terminating service from the north-facing bay platforms which the Northern fast service currently shares with the Leeds to Lincoln Central service which departs just beforehand.

For all the talk of extending platform 17 at Leeds to lengthen the Leeds to Lincoln/Nottingham services this is dependent on there being a platform at Sheffield long enough for the Lincoln services to turn around.

Of course all of this is dependent on finding an available platform at Leeds.

Once phase 1 of the new Northern Powerhouse rail scheme (electrifying South Kirkby Jn to Sheffield) comes along using a Class 810 would provide electric and should it be in scope 125 mph running capability.
 

Sad Sprinter

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I wonder if a Nottingham Parkway station was built at Toton, to connect with the tram line, how much demand there’ll be for Manchester/Leeds/Bradford to St Pancras services. Especially now with the Dart at Luton, I’m sure it could grow into an important corridor.
 

pdeaves

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the new Leeds-Sheffield fast(ish) service arrives at Sheffield just before a St Pancras train leaves, and leaves just after a St Pancras train arrives.
That looks to me like planning at its best; providing sensible connections between different service types (long distance, local). Combine these and, as others have pointed out, lots of other issues come to light. Then what? Combine with whatever the service currently connects with at Leeds? Then whatever that connects with?
 
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