St Pancras High Level Concourse - How Did it Ever Get Past Planning?

[Dr Hoo]

Agreed - been there many times - noted how the artwork disapeared after Railtrack was put into administration. On a cold , clear day - the views were superb. These things made the contents of the meetings bearable.

...and a further connection with this thread is that you could see St Pancras over Euston House.

I always liked the way that the steward served Royal Scot biscuits with the morning coffee. A fine sense of history.

 

[sheff1]

Am I taking too much of an internal view?

Possibly, possibly not. What is certain though is that the other half would have much preferred to have received an abridged version of your post rather than the non-reply EMT sent.

 

[sheff1]

When it comes down to it, it's a four-platform terminus the same as Fenchurch Street, with a bigger concourse and a lower train frequency.

And therein lies one of the reasons for the problems - passengers who have just missed a train have to wait longer for the next. Meanwhile, those with Advance tickets will tend to arrive earlier than commuters due to the issues involved with missing a booked train. Even those with walk up tickets are more likely to include a higher % of infrequent travellers than at Fenchurch St so, again, will tend to arrive earlier.

Add in the fact that many of the trains have only 4/5 coaches so many more regular travellers without reservations also hope to board early to get a seat and a crowd builds up. If the gates are not then opened until 5/6 minutes before departure a scrum is the result, followed by a charge up the platform (especially if your train is positioned at the far end)

 

[jon0844]

I saw the rush for myself. That's why I was quite glad to be on the platform and standing 'in position', but not boarding until the train was announced (not fair to get on when they're cleaning). From what I could see, the others who got through early waited too.

I don't doubt for one moment that some people do board when the trains are still being cleaned, and that's why the haphazard system is in operation - but that doesn't seem to actually help, especially anyone that might not be so able bodied. I wonder if it would be better to have announcements within the platform area to tell people not to board (along with signs).

But I guess a lot of people wouldn't take any notice.

As such, human nature means I am not sure what the solution is.

 

[edwin_m]

The 1915 from St Pancras is the first off-peak train to Nottingham, unless it's changed recently it's a 5-car when the other xx15 are mostly HSTs, and often as not late in on a short turnaround with no reservations posted. Anyone who's had the misfortune to travel on that will definitely want to push to the front of the queue next time.

 

[jon0844]

The 1915 from St Pancras is the first off-peak train to Nottingham, unless it's changed recently it's a 5-car when the other xx15 are mostly HSTs, and often as not late in on a short turnaround with no reservations posted. Anyone who's had the misfortune to travel on that will definitely want to push to the front of the queue next time.

I had a super off peak ticket and purposely waited for the 2015 and made seat reservations last Thursday. I suspected the 1915 would be a nightmare (the EMT website showed it as a 'red' train).

 

[sheff1]

As such, human nature means I am not sure what the solution is.

At Paris Est the other day, I encountered a new (to me) method of loading a TGV. The incoming working arrived and the cleaners boarded. After 10/15 mins or so a file of SNCF staff walked onto the platform and each one positioned themselves at one of the train doors. The cleaners left, the platform number was advertised (most people obviously knew and were ready and waiting), the barcode on each ticket was read at the appropriate door and everyone boarded calmly.

The key difference, of course, is that everyone on a TGV is guaranteed a seat - but an interesting contrast to the mayhem at St Pancras, nevertheless.

 

[edwin_m]

The key difference, of course, is that everyone on a TGV is guaranteed a seat - but an interesting contrast to the mayhem at St Pancras, nevertheless.

Also of course that SNCF has the staff available to do such a thing. If EMT had to find 12 staff to stand by the doors on an HST they'd have to shut down everything else they operate on the station.

 

[kevjs]

The 1915 from St Pancras is the first off-peak train to Nottingham, unless it's changed recently it's a 5-car when the other xx15 are mostly HSTs, and often as not late in on a short turnaround with no reservations posted. Anyone who's had the misfortune to travel on that will definitely want to push to the front of the queue next time.

The aisles completely rammed all the way to Leicester every time I've been on it - if you want the loo tough. When it's that heavily loaded if you have a seat reservation the last thing you want to do (especially if you are a tall guy like me who doesn't really fit in the seats) is to spend too long sitting on the benches which are too low down. There's also only so much time you can spend in the restaurants /cafe's when you're on a budget - and little point consuming anything as you know you won't be able to get to the loo anyway.

 

[BluePenguin]

I find the East Midland Trains part of the station a wasted large empty space that feels like an airport waiting room but with no seats. Seeing people huddled together in a big group waiting is common in many stations but nowhere else do they look as silly.

The Southeastern section has even less space and has nowhere at all to sit and wait apart from the Olympic Rings near the edge of the balcony overlooking the main entrance near the lift.
It is as if they only want people to come up the escalators when their train is due and to head straight through the barriers without hanging around wasting space - pretty much what commuters do as they come up from the underground at peak time.

Standing and waiting to meet someone off their train outside the barriers is definitely not a good idea. The staff stare at you so suspiciously! Standing a fair distance back seems to be tolerable though.

Even in other parts of the station like the concourse, there is limited seating to rest and you genuinely feel you are in the way wherever you are. It is pretty much the same story in Kings Cross.

In contrast, Euston has lots of seating upstairs where you can sit without buying anything. Elsewhere, Waterloo has the retail balcony and Victoria has Whetherspoons

 

[Mugby]

Also of course that SNCF has the staff available to do such a thing. If EMT had to find 12 staff to stand by the doors on an HST they'd have to shut down everything else they operate on the station.

Ah the contrast between a state owned system and a private TOC!

 

[edwin_m]

Ah the contrast between a state owned system and a private TOC!

Some say that SNCF stands for the French equivalent of "out of nine of them, five are working".

 

[pt_mad]

My only real complaint is that the listed status on the main trainshed meant the new portion had to look totally different, in other words, ugly.

Pity we couldn't have an arched train shed in the traditional style, maybe painted a different colour or whatnot to differentiate it.

Or just canopied platforms for the midland mainline, but in more of a traditional style. Like the outer ends of Paddington, the canopied parts.


Now, as for capacity improvements within the MML section of the station, am I right in thinking most of the upper floor above the mall and heading towards the MML is unused? (Apart from a few bars)? Could the mml concourse not be extended to include more of that area? With the closest escalators to the barriers enabled for downwards travel only? With their own exit barriers?

And with the entrance ticket barrier for the mml brought a lot further into the upper floor of the station? With a wider more open area of departure boards which are brought further towards the centre of the station as it were?


Also, capacity wise, do the mml platforms use permissive working? Could network rail not look at putting arrangements in place to allow 2 x 5 car meridians to use the same platform at the same time? Only suggested this as a poster earlier suggested 4 platforms perhaps may not be enough, and was designed before the old Turbostar services were introduced.

 

[edwin_m]

Now, as for capacity improvements within the MML section of the station, am I right in thinking most of the upper floor above the mall and heading towards the MML is unused? (Apart from a few bars)? Could the mml concourse not be extended to include more of that area? With the closest escalators to the barriers enabled for downwards travel only? With their own exit barriers?

And with the entrance ticket barrier for the mml brought a lot further into the upper floor of the station? With a wider more open area of departure boards which are brought further towards the centre of the station as it were?

That might help, especially if arriving passengers were funnelled towards the centre of the existing concourse and down the first two escalators (which are permanently downwards today, apparently because people kept stopping at the top to read the departures screens and other people would then collide with them). However if the departing barrier line was brought back to alongside these escalators, people waiting for trains to be announced would do so between the opening to the shops below and the side wall or the Eurostar fence, both of which are rather narrow.

Also, capacity wise, do the mml platforms use permissive working? Could network rail not look at putting arrangements in place to allow 2 x 5 car meridians to use the same platform at the same time? Only suggested this as a poster earlier suggested 4 platforms perhaps may not be enough, and was designed before the old Turbostar services were introduced.

Permissive working is used at least once in most hours, but obviously isn't a long-term solution if train lengths increase. However timetables could be changed to reduce platform occupancy. For example the Nottingham train arrives about xx13 at present and leaves at xx15 an hour and a bit later, so one is always in the platform in the off-peak. It has about 35min in Nottingham so if it was speeded up slightly and the timetable re-jigged it could have say a 90min journey and 30min each end, needing one train fewer than it does today. However, thanks to Mr Grayling, that acceleration and cost saving may not be possible with bi-modes.

 

[pt_mad]

That might help, especially if arriving passengers were funnelled towards the centre of the existing concourse and down the first two escalators (which are permanently downwards today, apparently because people kept stopping at the top to read the departures screens and other people would then collide with them). However if the departing barrier line was brought back to alongside these escalators, people waiting for trains to be announced would do so between the opening to the shops below and the side wall or the Eurostar fence, both of which are rather narrow.

Permissive working is used at least once in most hours, but obviously isn't a long-term solution if train lengths increase. However timetables could be changed to reduce platform occupancy. For example the Nottingham train arrives about xx13 at present and leaves at xx15 an hour and a bit later, so one is always in the platform in the off-peak. It has about 35min in Nottingham so if it was speeded up slightly and the timetable re-jigged it could have say a 90min journey and 30min each end, needing one train fewer than it does today. However, thanks to Mr Grayling, that acceleration and cost saving may not be possible with bi-modes.

What about if the departing barrier was brought back even further than that. To the wider area further back then the area where the down escalator goes?

And if people go through the barrier a lot earlier for trains, you would essentially be creating a secure (ticket wise) large concourse with plenty of room for waiting and queueing.

Or, just have the boarding ticket barrier literally in line with the southern edge of the narrow area. So that passengers only enter the narrow area once they are through the barrier. And there would be a line of barriers on each side of the southern edge of the open area.

 

[XDM]

Permissive working is used at least once in most hours, but obviously isn't a long-term solution if train lengths increase. However timetables could be changed to reduce platform occupancy. For example the Nottingham train arrives about xx13 at present and leaves at xx15 an hour and a bit later, so one is always in the platform in the off-peak. It has about 35min in Nottingham so if it was speeded up slightly and the timetable re-jigged it could have say a 90min journey and 30min each end, needing one train fewer than it does today. However, thanks to Mr Grayling, that acceleration and cost saving may not be possible with bi-modes.[/QUOTE]

Thanks to NR's unbelievable cost overruns & delays, not Mr Grayling.
But I agree wholeheartedly with your retiming proposal.

 

[Dore & Totley]

I did read many moons ago in Private Eye that the then Midland Mainline were offered more than 4 platforms bit declined saying the four were enough.