St Pancras barriers

[David Sinnett]

My last two monthly tickets - Bedford to Moorgate underground - have failed to operate the FCC/TL barriers at St. P yet do operate the the St. P LT barriers. The staff say its because its a Moorgate ticket.
What's the problem? Why should the barriers not accept my ticket when they have done so for the for precedeing months?

 

[dan_atki]

My last two monthly tickets - Bedford to Moorgate underground - have failed to operate the FCC/TL barriers at St. P yet do operate the the St. P LT barriers. The staff say its because its a Moorgate ticket.
What's the problem? Why should the barriers not accept my ticket when they have done so for the for precedeing months?

Break of journeys are an odd case for barriers - sometimes it is recognised and sometimes not. I'm assuming by what you wrote that it was accepted until the end of last year.

I can only assume that the barriers at STP have been reprogrammed in advance of the Moorgate branch closure at the end of this month. I expect FCC would be thinking that passengers would use the easier interchange at Farringdon to continue their journey (and as such would not need to pass through a barrier at an intermediate station).

I would also assume that LUL have reprogrammed their barriers at STP for people who wish to change there instead on tickets to Barbican and Moorgate seeing as there is an arrangement for at least the next two years to accept such tickets on their services.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Break of journeys are an odd case for barriers - sometimes it is recognised and sometimes not. I'm assuming by what you wrote that it was accepted until the end of last year.

:roll: The barriers at Lewes don't seem to recognise a 'break of journey' on London to Seaford tickets, either!

 

[glynn80]

Is it the barriers that are programmed to accept/reject tickets and the information regarding what is valid is held within the barrier itself or is the information regarding what is and isn't valid held on the ticket itself?

 

[First class]

Barriers are programmed to accept various destinations.

At Liverpool Central, the barriers give 3 modes: 'No Geography' , 'Accept All', and 'Full Checking'. There is also a 'special rules' option that can allow various destinations that don't actually exist, (e.g. Southport to MRAIL AREA C).

No Geography checks the date and ticket type only, so will reject tickets that are out of date, or can't be used during the 'peak'. The ticket is NOT retained.

Accept all allows any ticket pass through without checking. It is NOT retained.

Full Checking checks the destination, date, whether it has been used before, ticket type. The ticket is retained.

Child Locks have three options too. 'Monitor' , 'Alarm', 'Reject'. The monitor option does nothing except makes the barrier display "CHILD" then opens anyway, alarm just makes them beep if a child ticket goes through, but opens the barriers, reject makes the passenger show the ticket to the gateline/RPI staff and sounds an alarm.

On the barrier, various codes appear to say what the problem with the ticket is:

Garbled, Unreadable, Invalid CHK, Out of Date, Not yet in date, wrong destination etc....


Next time your ticket gets rejected, have a look at the little screen underneath the green arrow, and I'll look the number code up for you.

 

[David Sinnett]

Thanks. I'll look tonight.

 

[dan_atki]

Is it the barriers that are programmed to accept/reject tickets and the information regarding what is valid is held within the barrier itself or is the information regarding what is and isn't valid held on the ticket itself?

I think there has to be some sort of trade off where that's concerned - obviously a tiny magnetic strip such as that on the back on a ticket cannot list everywhere the ticket in valid and at which time! Sure, on short local journeys (e.g. Wimbledon to Clapham Junction) it could be expected, but the same strip is also used to encode Penzance to Wick!

Thanks for the information on modes of operation of the barriers, stethomson90. I remember that there is a site which lists (maybe out of date now) all the rejection reasons and associated codes (displayed on the side of UTS barriers) for LUL tickets at http://www.faqs.org/faqs/uk/transport-london/section-6.html

 

[yorkie]

I don't think the routeing info is held on the ticket! It's down to the programming of the barrier.

 

[paul1609]

I recently bought a Crianlarich to Littlehampton return from a Scotrail Guard. It worked the barriers okay at London St Pancras Low level, London Vic (SN) London Vic (LUL) Euston (LUL) but wouldnt work in either direction at Glasgow Queen Street!

 

[First class]

Erm the correct (new) codes are:

06 Engineer signed on
07 Unreadable
09 Garbled
90 Monitored
103 Invalid Data
105 Invalid BR Type
106 Rejected Type
107 Time (Type)
108 Time (Passenger)
113 Out of Date
115 Out of Date
116 Origin/Destination
118 Out of Date
120 Out of Date
123 Route Prohibited
125 Destination (Exit)
126 Origin (Exit)
127 Wrong Date
129 Wrong Direction
131 Insufficient fare
133 Passback
134 Previously used

TOCs only receive the codes relevant to their barriers, so the list will be incomplete.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I recently bought a Crianlarich to Littlehampton return from a Scotrail Guard. It worked the barriers okay at London St Pancras Low level, London Vic (SN) London Vic (LUL) Euston (LUL) but wouldnt work in either direction at Glasgow Queen Street!

The barriers in London may be set to 'accept all' - a common mode when busy to avoid staff having to manually check tickets. The ones in glasgow may have been on full checking, with special rules, e.g. reject discounted (railcard) tickets...

 

[David Sinnett]

The code on the barrier last night was 116. Obviously that's wrong as my Bedford -Moorgate ticket is any route. Do FCC expect me to not transfer to EMT?

 

[First class]

116 is wrong origin/destination. This usually happens when you put the wrong portion of the ticket into the barrier, e.g. your RTN instead of your OUT. (and vice versa).

Im not too sure what the deal with your ticket is, seeing as the NFM doesn't actually display any relevant fares- just EMT AP ones. The barriers will only recognise tickets that exist in the NFMs, (everything is linked).

What type of ticket do you have? How much does it cost, and where have you purchased it from?

 

[dan_atki]

What type of ticket do you have? How much does it cost, and where have you purchased it from?

Judging by the wording above it is a Bedford Stations to Moorgate Und route Any Permitted monthly season - £345.60.

I'd assume FCC would not expect you to change as direct services are offered and normally passengers will not change in such situations (even for a faster service).

 

[David Sinnett]

correct dan atki!
My usual journey is Bedford to St P on EMT change to FCC for Moorgate. Coming back its Moorgate either FCC or LUL to ST P then EMT.
Even when Moorgate closes I'll probably use LUL to ST P or Farr then change again. Just don't like the seat width and leg space on FCC though think the 377s will be better. Then theres the queueing of trains to get into Bedford. EMT, overall, is a better way to go.

 

[yorkie]

You may get a hefty fare rise when Moorgate closes

 

[dan_atki]

You may get a hefty fare rise when Moorgate closes

FCC have an agreement with TfL whereby tickets can continue to be issued to Moorgate Und until March 2011. Whether this is just seasons or all types I do not know.

 

[yorkie]

OK, you will get a hefty fare rise shortly after Moorgate closes

 

[David Sinnett]

What's the comparative cost of Bedford-London TL stations, monthly? That also presumably allows use of EMT?

 

[glynn80]

What's the comparative cost of Bedford-London TL stations, monthly? That also presumably allows use of EMT?

A monthly season from Bedford to London Thameslink is the same fare as the Bedford to Moorgate Und at £345.60.

The OP may have to purchase a Bedford to Zone U1 when the removal of the Moorgate fares occur. Currently this fare stands at £409 for a monthly season, an approximately 18% fare increase for those passengers.

 

[Tom C]

What's the comparative cost of Bedford-London TL stations, monthly? That also presumably allows use of EMT?

OK, you will get a hefty fare rise shortly after Moorgate closes

Season from Bedford Station to London Thameslink (which allows travel to any station between St Pancras Intl, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle but NOT Moorgate and Barbican) is £345.60 which is the same price for Moorgate and Barbican.

I am led to believe that there will be an arrangement that passengers who have seasons to Barbican and Moorgate will be allowed travel via LUL for a protected period when the line closes. This is at LEAST one year (I would check the Thameslink programme site for info on this) so by what we have been told there should be no reason in the short term to resort to a Travelcard.

The code on the barrier last night was 116. Obviously that's wrong as my Bedford -Moorgate ticket is any route. Do FCC expect me to not transfer to EMT?

The barriers can be very dimwitted and generally will not allow you to exit if your ticket does not have London Terminals, London Thameslink, St Pancras International or a +. Although with a Moorgate ticket you are allowed to break journey anywhere on line of route the barriers do not seem to understand this sadly.

The OP may have to purchase a Bedford to Zone U1 when the removal of the Moorgate fares occur. Currently this fare stands at £409 for a monthly season, an approximately 18% fare increase for those passengers

Just for clarity the £409 is actually a Zone 1-6 Travelcard plus Bedford Stations and not Zone U1 but I am fairly confident that in this case there should be no need to resort to this in the short term at least.

EDIT:

Quote from the Thameslink Programme website

What compensation will you give me when Thameslink route trains stop serving Barbican and Moorgate?

We know Moorgate passengers are concerned about this. It's a Government requirement that passengers using the Tube to get to Barbican or Moorgate from Bedford and stations north of London on the First Capital Connect Thameslink route won't have to pay any more than they usually would had they been able to catch the Thameslink route train. This is guaranteed for 24 months after the Moorgate Thameslink route branch closes. This means tickets will not be sold with validity beyond the 24-month period (March 2011). For example, First Capital Connect will stop selling annual season tickets to Barbican and Moorgate when there is less than 12 months left to go of the 24-month period (March 2011). Instead, First Capital Connect will sell shorter length season tickets up to the 24-month date (March 2011) at the usual discounted rates for such lengths of time.

 

[yorkie]

Basically they're really screwing people and they know it, so they have decided to do a "generous" offer for 2 years so that the hefty unfair charges are delayed for long enough for people to have got over it (they hope).

 

[dan_atki]

Basically they're really screwing people and they know it, so they have decided to do a "generous" offer for 2 years so that the hefty unfair charges are delayed for long enough for people to have got over it (they hope).

It's not the commuters' fault that Farringdon is built on a steep incline that means the platforms have to be extended over the crossover! FCC (or the Government if it is, indeed, one of their requirements) understand that and arranged with TfL for acceptance of tickets as necessary. Obviously TfL won't allow it to go on forever so it has to stop after a while and they charge their fares.

Let's do a comparison from Bedford (SDRs used):
Moorgate Underground: £34.00
Zone U12: £37.00
London Thameslink: £34.00

Zone 1 return (Oyster): £3.20

So an increase of £3 on day tickets (by getting the U12 return), and an extra £3.20 a day on seasons (return on Oyster).

For Luton this increase becomes £4.50, so Oyster would be the best option.
St Albans is £5.00 so, again, Oyster would be better.

Evidently the problem is historical, based on the fact that fares from TL North to all the central London stations on the Thameslink route are the same price (i.e. tickets to St Pancras are the same price as those to Moorgate and are the same price as those to London Bridge despite variation in validity).