St Neots Station Car Parks

[100andthirty]

I'm not sure whether I'm posting in the correct section but wanted to post a warning for unwary first time visitors to St Neots station car park(s).

When one enters the site from the south, one is greeted by a sign welcoming people to the station car park which is managed by APCOA for DTR Great Northern. Just inside, there's another smaller car park area that is separated from the main car park by a hedge. This isn't operated by APCOA but by Euro Car Parks which has its own payment machine.

On the day in question my wife parked in what she later found out was the Euro Car Parks section and went to pay. Finding the machine out of service, she went back to her car to find her phone to explore payment. She happened to be parked adjacent to the sign at the entrance to the main car park (the APCOA one mentioned above), so, not realising there were two operators, went to that sign to find the pay by phone number and paid APCOA. A few days later we received a Penalty Charge Notice from Euro Car Parks. To cut a long story short, the appeals to Euro Car Parks and POPLA both failed on the grounds that confusion between operators wasn't a valid reason, so we're now £100 poorer.

This is meant as a warning to anyone else using St Neots. I can see that it is entirely possible to park in the APCOA section and see the adjacent Euro Car Parks payment machine and so be in trouble with APCOA.

It is beyond my understanding how this situation has been allowed to happen.

 

[30907]

Thanks for the warning.

This is meant as a warning to anyone else using St Neots. I can see that it is entirely possible to park in the APCOA section and see the adjacent Euro Car Parks payment machine and so be in trouble with APCOA.

The ECP has prominent signs on its entrance (it looks to have been barriers at one time), and one by the main road calling itself a "public" car park. I think your scenario is unlikely.

It is beyond my understanding how this situation has been allowed to happen.

My guess - confirmed by historic maps - is that the ECP is not on former railway land.

Unfortunately for your wife, it is legal for an enterprising landowner to get planning permission for a car park - though there is an interesting question about accessing it over what is presumably a private road.

 

[Western Sunset]

The National Rail listing for St Neots, on their website, only mentions APCOA as the car park provider. I feel you need to take your complaint further.

PS As your wife paid for something she didn't get (from APCOA), I trust they'll pay back her parking costs. I bet POPLA didn't suggest that...

 

[miklcct]

A few days later we received a Penalty Charge Notice from Euro Car Parks.

Can private car park operators give out Penalty Charge Notice?! In my knowledge they can only give out Parking Charge Notice instead and under most circumstances you can ignore it anyway as they are barely enforceable, as it's just a civil matter instead of criminal offence.

 

[miklcct]

To cut a long story short, the appeals to Euro Car Parks and POPLA both failed on the grounds that confusion between operators wasn't a valid reason, so we're now £100 poorer.

The warning sign must be displayed prominently at the entrance for the charge to be valid. As Euro Car Park didn't do that, the charge is invalid anyway because it is placed in the way to cause confusion with the official railway station car park.

 

[DelayRepay]

On the day in question my wife parked in what she later found out was the Euro Car Parks section and went to pay. Finding the machine out of service, she went back to her car to find her phone to explore payment. She happened to be parked adjacent to the sign at the entrance to the main car park (the APCOA one mentioned above), so, not realising there were two operators, went to that sign to find the pay by phone number and paid APCOA. A few days later we received a Penalty Charge Notice from Euro Car Parks. To cut a long story short, the appeals to Euro Car Parks and POPLA both failed on the grounds that confusion between operators wasn't a valid reason, so we're now £100 poorer.

Was it the Euro Car Parks machine that was out of service, and if so did your wife use this in her appeal? Unable to pay because the machine was broken might have been a more successful reason than confusion about who manages the car park (although no doubt they would have denied the machine was broken, and said that if it was she should have paid by phone).

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a similar situation at Leighton Buzzard but I recall the signage being very clear indeed.

 

[100andthirty]

Was it the Euro Car Parks machine that was out of service, and if so did your wife use this in her appeal? Unable to pay because the machine was broken might have been a more successful reason than confusion about who manages the car park (although no doubt they would have denied the machine was broken, and said that if it was she should have paid by phone).

Yes, the Euro Car Parks machine was out of service and this was, indeed covered in the appeal. She did pay by phone after she had returned to her car to get her phone. As I said earlier, she paid to to APCOA as their details were on the sign nearest to her car. I think it was not realising that there were two different operators more than confusion that was to root cause.

 

[jon0844]

Potters Bar seems to have a similar situation with an unofficial car park that's even advertised as a station car park but has nothing to do with the railway.

Bedford has yellow signs showing where the council (I think) car park ends before it becomes the railway car park.

 

[100andthirty]

There is a similar situation at Leighton Buzzard but I recall the signage being very clear indeed.

I know the site at Leighton Buzzard. At St Neots, the public road into the station is part of the APCOA car park - the parking bays either side of the road. The ECP car park is located off this road after entering the APCOA area.

 

[Julia]

My guess - confirmed by historic maps - is that the ECP is not on former railway land.

Unfortunately for your wife, it is legal for an enterprising landowner to get planning permission for a car park - though there is an interesting question about accessing it over what is presumably a private road.

It's been that way for several decades - the land that ECP own was the site of the Station Inn, demolished around the time that Hawkesden Road was built up. There were barriers at one point in my memory (around 2000?) but they just disappeared, perhaps rusted away to nothing...

 

[DelayRepay]

Yes, the Euro Car Parks machine was out of service and this was, indeed covered in the appeal. She did pay by phone after she had returned to her car to get her phone. As I said earlier, she paid to to APCOA as their details were on the sign nearest to her car. I think it was not realising that there were two different operators more than confusion that was to root cause.

What I meant was, would an appeal solely on the basis that she could not pay because the machine was broken have been successful, rather than including the details about paying another company in error?

 

[EE59710]

There is a site called Pepipoo, whose members help with all sorts of parking issues. If you post on their fightback forums on the private parking page you will find many members who can advise and help. The cases they deal with and win make really interesting reading.

 

[miklcct]

As I said earlier, she paid to to APCOA as their details were on the sign nearest to her car.

This is the key point. The notice clearly says APCOA, rather than Euro Car Park, as a result there is no contract with Euro Car Park entered by the driver due to Euro Car Park's failure to display a clear sign while entering the car park.

 

[Deafdoggie]

This is the key point. The notice clearly says APCOA, rather than Euro Car Park, as a result there is no contract with Euro Car Park entered by the driver due to Euro Car Park's failure to display a clear sign while entering the car park.

But there was a clear sign when entering the car park, see post #2. There was a different sign near the car, but I don't think that qualifies as the first sign not being clear.

 

[Western Sunset]

Just been looking at Google Streetview (images dated 2018, so may have changed). On approaching the station via Station Road, by the road on the left is a sign "Public Car Park - Pay & Display". No intimation of ownership or who runs it. On the other side of the road is the standard BR station entrance sign with the BR logo above the station name. To all intents and purposes, it gives the impression that one has entered the station.

As Station Road curves to the left, on the left is a car park (presumably where the wife of the OP parked). There is a sign reading "Persons using this car park must pay at the machine by the entrance". Nearby is a sign "Pay at machine", yet the arrow points AWAY from the entrance. Very confusing.

Passing the station buildings there is another car park - presumably the APCOA one.

As I mentioned above, the National Rail blurb about St Neots only mentions APCOA as providing parking.

 

[DelayRepay]

As Station Road curves to the left, on the left is a car park (presumably where the wife of the OP parked). There is a sign reading "Persons using this car park must pay at the machine by the entrance". Nearby is a sign "Pay at machine", yet the arrow points AWAY from the entrance. Very confusing.

To me this is the key point. The OP's wife couldn't pay at the machine because it was broken. I think that should have been the basis for appeal - the fact she accidentally paid a different company isn't relevant, and has probably confused matters. Had it been me I would have replied explaining that the machine was broken, and enclosing a cheque for the cost of however many hours parking I owed.

 

[30907]

This is the key point. The notice clearly says APCOA, rather than Euro Car Park,

Which notice are you referring to? A photo would help, and I can't find one.

as a result there is no contract with Euro Car Park entered by the driver due to Euro Car Park's failure to display a clear sign while entering the car park.

Searching for photos online I came across this similar story from 2017:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/car-park-fine-cambridgeshire-stneots-14040759
The charges etc notice at the ECP entrance is easier to read in that report than on Streetview, and appears to be perfectly clear.

There is also a big notice by the ECP entrance telling their customers where to pay - I wonder if that was a result of the 2017 story?

 

[Western Sunset]

Thanks 30907; very interesting. Will APCOA refund the parking charge the OPs wife (wrongly) paid to them?

 

[Haywain]

As I mentioned above, the National Rail blurb about St Neots only mentions APCOA as providing parking.

If the other car park is privately operated on land that does not belong to the railway the information is correct.

 

[Western Sunset]

Though access, from what I've seen on Streetview, very much gives the impression that one has already entered the station estate, even if technically one hasn't.

 

[Watershed]

Can private car park operators give out Penalty Charge Notice?! In my knowledge they can only give out Parking Charge Notice instead and under most circumstances you can ignore it anyway as they are barely enforceable, as it's just a civil matter instead of criminal offence.

They are (unfortunately) enforceable in many more circumstances after the judicial activism in Beavis.

 

[100andthirty]

Which notice are you referring to? A photo would help, and I can't find one.

Searching for photos online I came across this similar story from 2017:
https://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/car-park-fine-cambridgeshire-stneots-14040759
The charges etc notice at the ECP entrance is easier to read in that report than on Streetview, and appears to be perfectly clear.

There is also a big notice by the ECP entrance telling their customers where to pay - I wonder if that was a result of the 2017 story?

The sign on entering the main station approach which is the start of the APCOA area clearly states the car park operator's name. The first sign to the ECP area is the big "use this machine" one which draws the eye away from the ECP sign which is much higher up and, I would argue, not all that obvious from the driving seat of a conventional hatchback when the driver is concentrating on finding a parking space.

I omitted to say in my first post that we've paid the £100 required to make this go away - we've got far too many other things to worry about than, as amateurs, fight car park operators who are experts in extracting money in these situations. I just wanted to highlight the issue for any other potential victims of this gotcha.

And, yes it was a Parking Charge Notice, apologies for sloppy use of terms.

 

[Western Sunset]

By the tone of your last missive, you want to draw a line under this. Fair enough. Though I'd still try to get the fee paid to APCOA refunded, to slightly offset the penalty charge paid to Euro Car. Parking firms can't have it both ways, or maybe they can... See what POPLA say.

 

[100andthirty]

POPLA responded in a pretty binary way although they wrote an awful lot of prose. "You parked in this car park and didn't pay their fee - appeal rejected". They recognised the fee paid to APCOA but discounted it. I'll explore getting the refund from APCOA

 

[shantiala]

Further to this series of posts of 2012, it is now 2022 and the same is still happening. And it's worse because I paid in advance online. I can't see the car parking signage from my office at home The small car park takes payment via PaybyPhone, but if you search online to pay in advance, all you get is APCOA. As I had never parked at St Neots before, I naturally assumed this was the right people to pay. I've paid 4 times this year. And only on the fourth time did I suddenly get a parking fine. If you search for advance payment in Google, you get APCOA. If you search their site for St Neots car park, the pin lands in the small car park on the site of the station. It is reasonable to suppose therefore that I'm paying for the right car park. I didn't know the first time I paid that there were two. And I wrongly assumed that when I did find out there were two, that they were all operated by the same people. Particularly as the first advance payment had occurred without incident.
I paid in advance, parked my car and hopped on my train. I didn't think I needed to check any further signage. I'd paid the only advance parking fee available online. And having done so once, I proceeded to do so three more times.
I took screenshots of my payments, and Google searches, and sent them to POPLA who rejected my appeal. So now I'm being threatened with court action if I don't pay, the fees of which are a third of the cost of the now £170 fine. I'm inclined to go to court with the Press in tow just to highlight how often this happens and how people are, in my opinion, being wrongly fined. We paid the parking fee. They should be reclaiming this from APCOA.

 

[30907]

Further to this series of posts of 2012, it is now 2022 and the same is still happening. And it's worse because I paid in advance online. I can't see the car parking signage from my office at home The small car park takes payment via PaybyPhone, but if you search online to pay in advance, all you get is APCOA. As I had never parked at St Neots before, I naturally assumed this was the right people to pay. I've paid 4 times this year. And only on the fourth time did I suddenly get a parking fine. If you search for advance payment in Google, you get APCOA. If you search their site for St Neots car park, the pin lands in the small car park on the site of the station. It is reasonable to suppose therefore that I'm paying for the right car park. I didn't know the first time I paid that there were two. And I wrongly assumed that when I did find out there were two, that they were all operated by the same people. Particularly as the first advance payment had occurred without incident.
I paid in advance, parked my car and hopped on my train. I didn't think I needed to check any further signage. I'd paid the only advance parking fee available online. And having done so once, I proceeded to do so three more times.
I took screenshots of my payments, and Google searches, and sent them to POPLA who rejected my appeal. So now I'm being threatened with court action if I don't pay, the fees of which are a third of the cost of the now £170 fine. I'm inclined to go to court with the Press in tow just to highlight how often this happens and how people are, in my opinion, being wrongly fined. We paid the parking fee. They should be reclaiming this from APCOA.

The posts are from earlier this year, though I referenced a story from 5 years back in post #18. As I said there, the signage on site for the ECP park appears to be clear enough, and paying online isn’t a mitigation.

 

[elniinio]

Hello, newbie here. I'm about to move to St Neots and am planning on parking at the station. I had a look on google earth to try and figure out the parking situation and it still isn't clear to me which car parks are which. I then searched and discovered this thread. I intend to buy a season ticket from APCOA, and wondered if anyone here with local knowledge could let me know which bit is the APCOA bit? TIA

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hello, newbie here. I'm about to move to St Neots and am planning on parking at the station. I had a look on google earth to try and figure out the parking situation and it still isn't clear to me which car parks are which. I then searched and discovered this thread. I intend to buy a season ticket from APCOA, and wondered if anyone here with local knowledge could let me know which bit is the APCOA bit? TIA

Best thing would probably be to go there, ideally on foot, and look at the signage.

 

[30907]

Hello, newbie here. I'm about to move to St Neots and am planning on parking at the station. I had a look on google earth to try and figure out the parking situation and it still isn't clear to me which car parks are which. I then searched and discovered this thread. I intend to buy a season ticket from APCOA, and wondered if anyone here with local knowledge could let me know which bit is the APCOA bit? TIA

Nearly all of it.
Look at Street View: the ECP section is off Station Road on the left as you drive in, with an obvious defined entrance and various signs. Confusion arises perhaps because there are APCOA spaces on Station Road before you reach the ECP turn.