St Albans tram conversion

[WatcherZero]

After the public consultation the conversion of the 6.5mile line to tram and implied use of second hand trams to keep costs down has been approved by Herts Council/Dft. Project will be financed by a grant from the DFT to reflect the operational savings over the next 20 years or so. A tram passing loop was chosen over a heavy rail due to much lower cost of signalling/infrastructure, London Midland who operate the line at a loss are happy for it to be taken off their hands. Expect a Dft press release soon.

2tph will replace the current 45m service with an aspiration that 3tph could be possible. Extension street running into St Albans centre is a future possibility that could make the service more economical.

The 4 short listed bidders to convert, provide the rolling stock and operate the service are:
Arriva Abbey Line Limited
Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles, SA (CAF)
National Express Group PLC
Transdev/Bombardier

*note this isnt a tram-train its a pure tram, probably highfloor to save platform conversion costs, OHLE will be reused but voltage lowered to tram level.

Project FAQ
http://www.hertsdirect.org/docs/pdf/f/FAQAbbeyLine

 

[YorkshireBear]

wish it was that easy to get the tram train trial up and running in sheffield, that seems to be taking forever.....

sounds good to me, a step forward, free's up a 321 also which is in no way a bad thing

Hopefully will bring line back to a profit rather than the loss it currently runs at

 

[tbtc]

I guess the advantage here is it can be a self contained "trial", whereas the Sheffield one was going to run alongside existing trains (and existing trams, if the Rotherham version happened), which may have complicated things.

I wish it all the best; anything that increases public transport is a good thing - not everything suits heavy rail

 

[YorkshireBear]

I guess the advantage here is it can be a self contained "trial", whereas the Sheffield one was going to run alongside existing trains (and existing trams, if the Rotherham version happened), which may have complicated things.

I wish it all the best; anything that increases public transport is a good thing - not everything suits heavy rail

I think they have to connect tram to the freight only line behind the centertainement complex and build a new bridge and order new trams.... so yeah i suppose your right.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Extension street running into St Albans centre is a future possibility that could make the service more economical....

Could they run up Holywell Hill? It seems might steep!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Could they run up Holywell Hill? It seems might steep!

have you seen some of the hills the sheffield tram deals with? there pretty steep

 

[Mr Spock]

Could this thread be connected to the one further down about Watford Junction trams.

 

[WatcherZero]

Could they run up Holywell Hill? It seems might steep!

Trams easily accomadate a 10% gradient.

 

[yorkie]

Diesel trams up 1 in 10? That'd require quite some engine! Maybe NIR could spare some of their engines from their 450 class? That'd be hellfire

Let's face it, the Penistone line tram proposal was a bird-brained idea.

 

[YorkshireBear]

penistone line was a stupid idea rotheram makes much more sense....

 

[WatcherZero]

Diesel trams up 1 in 10? That'd require quite some engine! Maybe NIR could spare some of their engines from their 450 class? That'd be hellfire

Let's face it, the Penistone line tram proposal was a bird-brained idea.

Why would they be diesel? Theyve alrady said their converting the existing electrification.

Lines currently operated by 321/4, previously a 313 though a 150 has been known to sub when the 321 is out of service.

 

[swt_passenger]

Could this thread be connected to the one further down about Watford Junction trams.

If only...

The OP possibly thought that thread was only about the other end...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess the advantage here is it can be a self contained "trial"...

It isn't a trial though.

It was a proposal for a permanent conversion of a rail line to a tram system, as seen on Metrolink, and in Croydon. And now it's been approved.

 

[tbtc]

It isn't a trial though.

It was a proposal for a permanent conversion of a rail line to a tram system, as seen on Metrolink, and in Croydon. And now it's been approved.

It's a trial for other areas though; if this works then a lot of other self contained branch lines are potential candidates for conversion to trams

Given how beaurocratic and expensive a lot of "heavy rail" operations are, I could understand it if other areas look at the St Albans line and decided that they wanted a "makeover" like this

 

[WatcherZero]

As a curiosity, how many self contained branch lines are there out there from say 5miles to 25miles with a shuttle or minimal onward running?

St Albans sticks out mainly for the fact its single track for most of its length, are there other single track branch lines like this?

Lymington jumpts to mind.

 

[Vulcan]

The St Albans Abbey - Watford Junction line seems like another perfect application of a Parry People Mover to me, except perhaps a 2 car set this time.

 

[Mr Spock]

The St Albans Abbey - Watford Junction line seems like another perfect application of a Parry People Mover to me, except perhaps a 2 car set this time.

I do not think that is an option as they would have to be big coaches to carry all the passengers that use the line.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well its interesting, two of the bidders are Bus/Rail companies Arriva and Nat Ex, the other two are tram builders, CAF and Bombadier though Bombadier does some infrastructure work too.

 

[jon0844]

I saw the last question in that document mentioned a future expansion to St Albans (the town, or City station, and on to Hatfield).

Is anyone actually considering reinstating the Alban Way for some sort of tram service, or was that a passing comment?

That would be quite amazing, linking up St Albans to Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City. It would actually offer a proper link between the ECML, MML and then via St Albans Abbey/Watford to the WCML - and could actually become a lot busier than anyone might expect, especially at times of disruption.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a case of first get a functioning system, then see if theirs public funds, private funds or a combination of both available for expansion.

 

[causton]

The Alban Way, at least from St Albans London Road to just west of Hatfield is almost perfect for rebuilding as almost none of it has been built upon and apart from a couple of bridges it doesn't need that much groundwork.

Whether people would support one of the best cycling facilities in the area being removed, or it's cost-effective/feasible (yes, same thing these days) to get through Hatfield (especially under the A1(M)!) is a totally different thing.

I think FCC's line2line, where bus between HAT + STA is covered by the train ticket, is the closest we'll get for a very long time!

 

[Neilandrewhall]

I posted a post bout this

 

[jon0844]

The Alban Way, at least from St Albans London Road to just west of Hatfield is almost perfect for rebuilding as almost none of it has been built upon and apart from a couple of bridges it doesn't need that much groundwork.

Whether people would support one of the best cycling facilities in the area being removed, or it's cost-effective/feasible (yes, same thing these days) to get through Hatfield (especially under the A1(M)!) is a totally different thing.

I think FCC's line2line, where bus between HAT + STA is covered by the train ticket, is the closest we'll get for a very long time!

The Alban Way goes alongside the A1(M) to the Galleria, which is where the problem is - namely part of the route being the edge of the Galleria road and the back of houses (a friend would lose part of his garden if this happened). I am not sure exactly how it would cross the road there. It then goes over some bridges that are no longer there towards Hatfield (so pedestrians and cyclists must cross the road). I thought it also continued on to WGC but don't think it does, although you can still cycle on using paths that have been built along the main road.

The line2line thing is great in theory, except the timetable is a bit of a mess for Arriva, Uno and now Tiger Line buses - there are large gaps in service and a lot of buses don't run to time (some will run early). There's no official connection to trains either, so it's easy to come out and see your bus leaving the forecourt. Like plusBus, it offers a bit more convenience to passengers but FCC hasn't actually done anything to make them run better for the railway, as those buses all ran anyway.

But, I do think it's the best we'll get for some considerable time. The other issue with line2line is that if there's disruption, the bus companies won't take people that haven't paid extra - so FCC would still need to lay on buses of their own if people didn't want to pay!

 

[causton]

The Alban Way goes alongside the A1(M) to the Galleria, which is where the problem is - namely part of the route being the edge of the Galleria road and the back of houses (a friend would lose part of his garden if this happened).

That was what I meant, as well as the St Albans Road crossing. The rest is just about do-able, but nowhere near wide enough for double track so won't be terribly useful!

The Alban Way just follows the track all the way to where the current railway is now, going round a curve after the Ground Lane crossing then joining the mainline (obviously not the Alban Way! That goes over the footbridge that replaced the long-gone-fallen-over Wrestlers Bridge)

The line2line thing is great in theory, except the timetable is a bit of a mess for Arriva, Uno and now Tiger Line buses - there are large gaps in service and a lot of buses don't run to time (some will run early). There's no official connection to trains either, so it's easy to come out and see your bus leaving the forecourt. Like plusBus, it offers a bit more convenience to passengers but FCC hasn't actually done anything to make them run better for the railway, as those buses all ran anyway.

The train/bus connections at Hatfield are horrible. At night the 602 leaves at 15 past, the 404/405 at 18 past, then I think the train arrives at 19 past!

FCC would still need to lay on buses of their own if people didn't want to pay!

What's the betting they wouldn't, therefore making the line2line ticket useless?

 

[jon0844]

True.

The 602 is a joke. At night, it will run so far ahead of time from St Albans or Watford that it can get to Hatfield station 5-10 minutes early and it will not wait. If one driver in a hundred waited, I'd say that I'm being overly generous! As a result, the train arriving at xx27 will be long after the xx30 bus has been and gone.

And, just in case that isn't bad enough - in that you may wait for a bus that already left, but will then get the next one that is also early - the other problem is that I've been on the 602 from St Albans and had drivers skip the station completely as it is quicker to avoid the station to get back to the depot (I live at the last stop before the depot). Uno drivers will sometimes sit outside the depot for a while before going back in, presumably to avoid being told off for arriving before they're even supposed to be at the station!

I've complained but nothing has ever changed and the people who I speak to are obviously thinking I'm a PITA for moaning, and just want rid of me. I am one of only a few people likely to use the bus at night (so, it's paid for by Herts County Council) and they don't have inspectors working after 9.30pm. Now, I'd imagine nobody uses it at night because it's so unreliable, so I really don't know why HCC pays for it to run (which in turn means I am paying for it).

One day, HCC may actually wise up and create a bus service that allows for connections with trains. Either that, or First might actually opt to run its OWN buses between Hatfield and St Albans on a regular basis.

 

[ntg]

I thought I'd join this forum to provide some input to this discussion, since it's of particular interest to me. In my opinion if funding was procured it would be entirely possible to re-establish the link between St. Albans and Hatfield, using most of the Alban Way. This difficult sections would indeed be Orient Close and the Galleria.

Orient Close has enough land adjacent so long as the land could be procured by the eventual operator. Or, if it is decided that an extension through St Albans is desirable, this could provide the connection.

With regards to Hatfield, it could be possible to reroute the tram around the Galleria, providing connections to the Town Centre (soon to be redeveloped), The Galleria itself, and both campuses of the university (indeed, a connection to the St Albans campus too), and the seemingly ever expanding business park. These are, to be honest, the main attractions of Hatfield, yet all are situated far away from any train station. And yes, the bus connections are woefully unreliable. Running trams in roads is a well established practice across the world so it isn't a long shot to have this for some short sections through Hatfield.

There appears to be old track bed adjacent to the current Hatfield station (once siding and turntable, apparently) so the means for connecting a tram directly main line services exists. In my opinion, the benefits outweigh the problems (all relying, of course, on sufficient funding).

Is there really any support for these sorts of development however? Apparently so. But anything like this probably won't be happening for a number of years yet. So it's much more than a passing comments, but it could be 2020 before we seem trams running between Hatfield and St Albans. But as Hatfield grows, the University grows, the economy grows, and the environmental pressure for public transport grows, the viability will only increase.

 

[causton]

With regards to Hatfield, it could be possible to reroute the tram around the Galleria, providing connections to the Town Centre (soon to be redeveloped), The Galleria itself, and both campuses of the university (indeed, a connection to the St Albans campus too), and the seemingly ever expanding business park.

I was just thinking about the routing. Maybe the Galleria's front entrance road could be used as a tram stop and the road round the side could be used. Then on street running along the old St Albans Road past the back of Asda, possibly with a Business Park spur connecting at the sorting office then somehow getting to Hatfield station? (maybe go up Wellfield Road and pick up the old alignment to curve round)

Orient Close is easy in comparison, industrial-looking units that could be demolished or the space behind them

 

[WatcherZero]

Dont be afraid to knock down the odd house, church, social club or pub thats in the way is the Metrolink experience as long as their not listed. Offering to relocate them to nicer premises they usually agree. With houses, you buy them up along the route as they come on the market gradually over the years, installing tenants with short term leases, by the time your ready to start construction theres no one losing a home.

 

[causton]

True.

The 602 is a joke. At night, it will run so far ahead of time from St Albans or Watford that it can get to Hatfield station 5-10 minutes early and it will not wait. If one driver in a hundred waited, I'd say that I'm being overly generous! As a result, the train arriving at xx27 will be long after the xx30 bus has been and gone.

And, just in case that isn't bad enough - in that you may wait for a bus that already left, but will then get the next one that is also early - the other problem is that I've been on the 602 from St Albans and had drivers skip the station completely as it is quicker to avoid the station to get back to the depot (I live at the last stop before the depot). Uno drivers will sometimes sit outside the depot for a while before going back in, presumably to avoid being told off for arriving before they're even supposed to be at the station!

I've complained but nothing has ever changed and the people who I speak to are obviously thinking I'm a PITA for moaning, and just want rid of me. I am one of only a few people likely to use the bus at night (so, it's paid for by Herts County Council) and they don't have inspectors working after 9.30pm. Now, I'd imagine nobody uses it at night because it's so unreliable, so I really don't know why HCC pays for it to run (which in turn means I am paying for it).

One day, HCC may actually wise up and create a bus service that allows for connections with trains. Either that, or First might actually opt to run its OWN buses between Hatfield and St Albans on a regular basis.

(Didn't notice this post before!)

I live on the 602 route and see the general trend so I know what you mean. I've heard all the stories of drivers skipping the station but fortunately have never had to get a bus to the station at night, always from the station, which turn up about 10 minutes late. Which isn't bad, as the slow train comes at 19 and 49 i think, but the buses should leave at 15 and 45. And perhaps the reason the xx30 buses miss the xx27 is because they shaved a few minutes off the Watford end missing out Bushey station, meaning the xx30 is now timetabled for xx28 (and xx00 now xx58)! They go past up to 8 minutes early some evenings though, so no shock there. With the recent timetable change I would have thought they could better match up the timetables!

And now the uni's back on they pay for most of the evening journeys the HCC doesn't cover. I don't know whether the half an hour frequency at night is good or bad - the buses seem to be very lightly loaded but that could just be because of where my house is!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dont be afraid to knock down the odd house, church, social club or pub thats in the way is the Metrolink experience as long as their not listed. Offering to relocate them to nicer premises they usually agree. With houses, you buy them up along the route as they come on the market gradually over the years, installing tenants with short term leases, by the time your ready to start construction theres no one losing a home.

I suppose that isn't a bad idea, with many houses being student houses they are only going to live in them for a couple of years anyway, which isn't too bad!

 

[Z12XE]

I dont wish to get into a debate about whether this is right or wrong for this branch (as I'm not familar with the local transport needs), but looking through the consultation papers there seems to be one or two items which should have been clarified, I beileve that ABFLY have pointed these out.

In the event of collapse/walk away from contract of the operator, who takes responsibility and who is the operator of last resort? Its not like the Stourbridge town branch where they can just use a normal train and get London Midlands to cover it.

They suggest that modifications will be made - should the route ever need to go back to heavy rail for whatever reason, who would pay for this, who would operate it and how long would it take?

As the line will no longer be considered a railway, normal closure procedures will not apply, what are the alternative measures they speak of?

Then there's the question of local politics, funding and council support becomes a political football. Regulation of the services (performance, CSLs etc) Just look at other transport issues like local buses or Cambridgeshire's saga with the mis guided bus way....

 

[WatcherZero]

Can answer a couple, Light rail is still rail and the same rules and planning constraints apply, it takes a year to close a stop and you have to apply to the Minister for Transport for an order allowing the construction of a new line.

The council is the ultimate franchise awarder, if the franchisee walks away it can appoint a new one as happened in Sheffield.

The scheme would be a going concern with a grant from the Dft, if the franchisee walked away yes the council would have to run it. In essence rather than a build and operate contract for the council this is more like a concession to design build and operate like a bus franchise with the council having minimal influence on day to day behavior but able to removed for violating conditions of its award e.g. min service frequency, quality, financial performance targets.