Squeaking 142's

[strange6]

Take this with a pinch of salt, but I'm sure some drivers take a corner in a 142 at the maximum rated speed to make the passengers cringe!
The noise tonight going into Salford Central from the Vic even had me covering my ears up it was that bad. Would warmer rails cause this horribly ear piercing phenomenon to become worse? And why do 142's seem by far the worse for this noise? Must be something to do with the axle arrangement surely?

 

[387star]

Was terrible at Exeter last week a passenger put her hands over her ears and tbh I thought the noise was unacceptable and a hazard to my ears!

 

[Hydro]

Would warmer rails cause this horribly ear piercing phenomenon to become worse?

In a word...no.

I had a similar ear covering experience on a 185 once, with the transmission whine. It resonated with the window pillar I was sitting next to and just became ridiculously ear splitting.

 

[trentside]

Going into and out of Platform 5 at Lincoln Central is awful. It really makes me want to clench my teeth and put my fingers in my ears, but I think that would make me look slightly mad, so I don't!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

I've seen many cover their ears when going round the Cardiff Queen Street ramp on a 142/143. Well, it's not as loud as Barry curve mind, I wonder how they get on there!!

 

[northwichcat]

Would warmer rails cause this horribly ear piercing phenomenon to become worse?

It's more likely that the windows were open on the train.

 

[driver9000]

The long wheelbase of the 142 is the main cause of their tendency to squeal round sharp bends. Flange squeal isn't restricted to 142s on that corner (25mph) at Central either but I can think of much worse places for it!

 

[strange6]

The long wheelbase of the 142 is the main cause of their tendency to squeal round sharp bends. Flange squeal isn't restricted to 142s on that corner (25mph) at Central either but I can think of much worse places for it!

Well, it was bad tonight. Everybody on the train had their ears covered!

 

[umontu]

Is there some health and safety type of regulation on the noise levels produced on the railways?
I'm a music student and we get told to limit the amount of time we're in the studios for to about an hour due to noise levels which I can say with some confidence the pacers are close to.

Having said that recent recording work at Marsden station taught me that the levels of a 185 at speed are very very loud too, though did produce beautiful sounds.

 

[Yew]

142's are definately worse than 144's at lincoln central.

 

[trickyvegas]

I remember the curve where the Ashton platform used to be at Miles Platting used to be pretty brutal but seems less so these days.

 

[ACE1888]

Barnstaple last summer on a 142 was...well...dreadful...the 'nodding donkey' indeed! Worst Unit ever in my book, cheap and nasty!!! Roll on FGW getting ALL the promised 150/1's ASAP

 

[387star]

Yes I travelled to Exmouth on one last week. I haven't been on one since a kid when I wouldn't have taken notice of such things but the ride was terrible

 

[Ivo]

Barnstaple last summer on a 142 was...well...dreadful...the 'nodding donkey' indeed! Worst Unit ever in my book, cheap and nasty!!! Roll on FGW getting ALL the promised 150/1's ASAP

I would have said this route as well. There is one area which has an almost continuous bend well beyond 90 degrees which is done at about 10mph! Portsmouth Arms possibly? Not suited to Pacers at all.

Avonmouth is another, although only when continuing to Severn Beach. There is a long level crossing which sounds (and feels!) awful as well.

 

[sprinterguy]

There is or was at least one particularly sharp curve, I think in the north west, that was fitted with water jets that were activated by the approach of a train in a successful attempt to reduce flange squeal, primarily from Pacers.

Barnstaple last summer on a 142 was...well...dreadful...the 'nodding donkey' indeed! Worst Unit ever in my book, cheap and nasty!!! Roll on FGW getting ALL the promised 150/1's ASAP

Yeah, there was a good reason that the Cornish “Skippers” (142s in brown and cream) were quickly deemed to be unsuitable for the branch lines of Devon and Cornwall and were shifted north. Bit of a poor decision to bring 142s back into the West Country (Yes I know the 143s are regulars down to Paignton as well).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I’ve said it before on threads of this nature, the reverse curve in Gateshead from the old Tyneside Central Freight Depot to the High Level Bridge on the approach to Newcastle offers the full Pacer experience that is so character building for any who experience it: The high pitched squeal of the wheel flanges grinding against the rail, coupled with the ship-in-a-storm like tendencies to buck and dive in and out of every joint in the jointed track, which caused me to hit my head off the metal grab rail on the bus seats more often than not when I was a kid. Absolutely great stuff

As far as I am aware, the chassis of a Pacer is a direct development of the VDA van chassis, albeit 4.5 metres longer, and it’s the extra length of the fixed wheelbase, as driver9000 says, that causes the Pacers’ problem. The VDA vans don’t have anywhere near the same problems with wheel squeal on curves.

 

[DarloRich]

]
I’ve said it before on threads of this nature, the reverse curve in Gateshead from the old Tyneside Central Freight Depot to the High Level Bridge on the approach to Newcastle offers the full Pacer experience that is so character building for any who experience it: The high pitched squeal of the wheel flanges grinding against the rail, coupled with the ship-in-a-storm like tendencies to buck and dive in and out of every joint in the jointed track, which caused me to hit my head off the metal grab rail on the bus seats more often than not when I was a kid. Absolutely great stuff

QUOTE]

That is a terrible, terrible, terrible, experiance to have to travel on one of those "things" round those curves. Painful is not the correct word.

If only NE had taken a leaf out of Scotlands book, taken one look at the things and sent them packing! (it is alleged!)
(as an aisde i remember when the 143's first came in to service on the Darlo - Boro/Saltburn run, they kept breaking down so a load of welsh first gen units turned up - 117? - it was wonderful!)

The worst thing is that they squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek on almost ANY curve and try to leave the track on almost any straight bit.

 

[sprinterguy]

(as an aisde i remember when the 143's first came in to service on the Darlo - Boro/Saltburn run, they kept breaking down so a load of welsh first gen units turned up - 117? - it was wonderful!)

We got loco hauled on the Durham coast acting as our Pacer Replacers when the 143s and 142s were playing up after they were delivered Unfortunately I was much too young at the time to have any memories of this

 

[DavidBrown]

I would have said this route as well. There is one area which has an almost continuous bend well beyond 90 degrees which is done at about 10mph! Portsmouth Arms possibly? Not suited to Pacers at all.

The speed limit for the majority of the Tarka Line (Umberleigh to Coleford Junction) is 55mph for DMU's (30 for everything else), and you can certaintly feel and hear that speed going round the corners on the 142. You don't feel it so much on the 143s, and not at all on the 150s.

For me though, the worst place for a pacer to take a corner is Exmouth Junction. You literally get thrown from one side of the carriage to the other when negotiating the cross-over approaching the junction (i.e. Exmouth-bound), and then loud squeeling as you leave to Waterloo line until Polsloe Bridge. Those points were certaintly not fun on a ram-packed 2 car 142 going to an Exeter Chiefs game!

 

[YorkshireBear]

pacers are fun anywhere in my opinion. must admit though on a sheffield leeds fast on jointed track in a 142. It was an experience.
as a unit i dont mind them but they do squeak alot, even on approach to leeds and anywhere else that involves turnouts!

Have they ever made it to dinting? cos i imagine that would be bad

 

[RichmondCommu]

And to think that people want to see these things run on preserved lines! There's no doubt that they got the railways out of a real mess in the 80's but surely their time is up? As Merseyrail are looking for replacements perhaps a diesel variant needs to be produced at the same time. However, i do believe that one Pacer should be saved for the national collection and in time a 150, 156 and 158 too.

 

[O L Leigh]

142's are definately worse than 144's at lincoln central.

How can that be possible when they are identical below the solebar and are maintained at the same depot? Methinks you obfuscate.

I remember these units from the early 1990's around Newcastle and Sunderland, both when they had the Leyland TL11 engines and the later Cummins. They were always bad for picking up resonant frequencies and amplifying them when under power, but particularly with the Cummins powerplants. The ride was always lively and the track noise between Heworth and Newcastle was always intrusive. In those respects they were only marginally worse than a 1st gen DMU.

But to address the original point, I honestly don't believe that drivers deliberately keep to the maximum linespeed simply to get the squeal. After all, they have to listen to it all day.

O L Leigh

 

[strange6]

But to address the original point, I honestly don't believe that drivers deliberately keep to the maximum linespeed simply to get the squeal. After all, they have to listen to it all day.

That's why I said, 'take this with a pinch of salt', Mr Leigh!

Mind you, if I were carrying a bunch of rowdy football fans, I would want to make as much noise as poss

 

[Yew]

How can that be possible when they are identical below the solebar and are maintained at the same depot? Methinks you obfuscate.

I remember these units from the early 1990's around Newcastle and Sunderland, both when they had the Leyland TL11 engines and the later Cummins. They were always bad for picking up resonant frequencies and amplifying them when under power, but particularly with the Cummins powerplants. The ride was always lively and the track noise between Heworth and Newcastle was always intrusive. In those respects they were only marginally worse than a 1st gen DMU.

But to address the original point, I honestly don't believe that drivers deliberately keep to the maximum linespeed simply to get the squeal. After all, they have to listen to it all day.

O L Leigh

It could just be that the 144's on northern have nice richmond seats and seem nicer, so you hear it less. or Maybe the 144's have a little more soundproofing or somthing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Extra. Could the Buncyness be removed by adjusting the suspension? (like they do in rally cars and stuff) Because the track around lincoln is as smooth as anything in a 150 or other sprinter. But then you are all over the place in a Pacer.

 

[142094]

I’ve said it before on threads of this nature, the reverse curve in Gateshead from the old Tyneside Central Freight Depot to the High Level Bridge on the approach to Newcastle offers the full Pacer experience that is so character building for any who experience it: The high pitched squeal of the wheel flanges grinding against the rail, coupled with the ship-in-a-storm like tendencies to buck and dive in and out of every joint in the jointed track, which caused me to hit my head off the metal grab rail on the bus seats more often than not when I was a kid. Absolutely great stuff

Standing on the Tyne Bridge at the Newcastle end and you can hear it, above the noise of the traffic as well. I'll miss that when they are gone.

 

[driver9000]

142s and 144s are maintained at different depots. 142s at Newton Heath and Heaton while 144s are maintained at Neville Hill. Both suffer the same flange squeal being identical below the sole bar.

Adjusting the suspension is unlikely to improve the ride of the Pacer, stiffening it would make it unacceptably rough, the bounce softens a lot of the hard bumps in the track. Sprinters feel smoother thanks to their bogies and the air suspension - if you ever travel on one with the bags deflated then you certainly feel the bumps.

 

[strange6]

142s and 144s are maintained at different depots. 142s at Newton Heath and Heaton while 144s are maintained at Neville Hill. Both suffer the same flange squeal being identical below the sole bar.

Adjusting the suspension is unlikely to improve the ride of the Pacer, stiffening it would make it unacceptably rough, the bounce softens a lot of the hard bumps in the track. Sprinters feel smoother thanks to their bogies and the air suspension - if you ever travel on one with the bags deflated then you certainly feel the bumps.

Just like that Atherton train a couple of weeks ago when the suspension broke. Anyway, came home on a 142 tonight with hot air blowing on to my legs from the knee level grills. Very uncomfortable given the warm weather. Can they not shut this heat off?

 

[driver9000]

came home on a 142 tonight with hot air blowing on to my legs from the knee level grills. Very uncomfortable given the warm weather. Can they not shut this heat off?

A tricky situation really given the way the heating system works. The sets that have floor grilles or the box heater have a thermostat valve that can be turned off by crew stopping the water and the roof heater pod sets have switches that can turn the fans off. Even with the thermostats turned down it can take a long time for the pipes to cool down and sometimes they don't quite turn fully off, the 150s lost their water cocks a long time ago. The heating works by using the waste heat from the coolant and topped up by an auxiliary diesel burner by passing it round the heater pipes to cool down before returning to the header tank and the heat is blown out by the fans into the saloon (if you feel the handrails nearest the outer doors on a 142 with roof heaters, you'll notice they are slightly warm because this is where the water pipe is). The problem with this method is even though the fans might be off, the coolant is still being passed through the pipes.

 

[strange6]

A tricky situation really given the way the heating system works. The sets that have floor grilles or the box heater have a thermostat valve that can be turned off by crew stopping the water and the roof heater pod sets have switches that can turn the fans off. Even with the thermostats turned down it can take a long time for the pipes to cool down and sometimes they don't quite turn fully off, the 150s lost their water cocks a long time ago. The heating works by using the waste heat from the coolant and topped up by an auxiliary diesel burner by passing it round the heater pipes to cool down before returning to the header tank and the heat is blown out by the fans into the saloon (if you feel the handrails nearest the outer doors on a 142 with roof heaters, you'll notice they are slightly warm because this is where the water pipe is). The problem with this method is even though the fans might be off, the coolant is still being passed through the pipes.

Brilliant! roll on a record breaking hot summer on the railways then! It's alright for you train crew,; you can just push your window down! Thanks for that technical brief though

 

[northwichcat]

Brilliant! roll on a record breaking hot summer on the railways then! It's alright for you train crew,; you can just push your window down! Thanks for that technical brief though

And in the Winter when you need the heat there's quite often a unit fault on Northern trains meaning there's no heat coming out.

 

[strange6]

And in the Winter when you need the heat there's quite often a unit fault on Northern trains meaning there's no heat coming out.

I know! During the really cold snap before Xmas I was on a 142 on the run-down from Bolton to Salford Crescent (max speed if given a green road) and it got that cold within the train that ice started forming on the inside of the window and this party of schoolgirls literally couldn't speak in front of me they were shivering that much. I have never experienced cold like that before and hopefully never will again