Spotters Trespassing

[muz379]

Well, that post and your's does tie in with what I've always found - it doesn't matter what is happening on board the train, so long as the wheels are turning nobody outside that passenger compartment of that train thinks it's a problem. Once the train get's delayed by the guard, however, to deal with ithe problems or wait for BTP to turn up, everybody (including the driver) wants to know why did you dare cause delay minutes and why are they getting home late.

Then again, maybe my view is skewed as I'm not the one having to look at the spotters on a nice sunny afternoon as I whizz past them, but am the one having to get up close and personal with the drunks on a Saturday night while locked inside a moving vehicle with them, knowing that the next three stations are unmanned, the two BTP officers on duty for all of South Wales are a 45 minute drive from the next station (if they are available at all), and that when I eventually get back to my depot, I'm looking at several hours of form-filling, interviews and please explains.

This still doesn't justify Spotters trespassing, but might explain why I'm not as dismissive of troublemaking drunks as somebody who is locked in a driving cab away from them all and carrying no responsibility for them, or tolerating them on their platform for five or ten minutes knowing they will all be getting on a train soon and becoming somebody else's problem.

As a guard myself I fully agree with and share your concerns about being locked in a train with a load of drunks . I wish that there was a crack team of BTP officers on every train I have to work on Friday and Saturday nights.

On the flip side though I still think trespass should be treated relatively seriously . The driver might suspect it is just spotters but you can never be 100% sure .

As much as I dont like being locked in a train with idiots on a Friday and Saturday night . I also wouldn't like to have to get out of that train and walk along the ballast to see if that bang the driver has just brought the train to a grinding halt for is a trespasser that we have hit . Id hate to have to see the effects that would have on the driver if it is . And id hate even more if I would have to be locked on that train with the drunk maniacs in the middle of nowhere for hours because someone has decided to help themselves to the signalling cable .

 

[Antman]

Try going to somewhere like Northallerton and watch them get over-excited, jumping around whilst waving their hands in the air and bouncing off each other.

One day someone will fall over the edge, and then what?

I have seen them at other locations and some of them do look ridiculous but they normally seem to be at the end of the platform out of the way.

 

[capital12]

I don't there is any need to be so rude about them, surely it is good that these kids (which I assume most of them are?) have a worthwhile hobby rather than taking drugs etc etc?

Most of them might as well be on drugs for all the sense they make!
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Well I can't imagine that they are doing any great harm unlike vandals and such like?

If they're anything like the ones I've seen recently they should be arrested for anti-social behaviour themselves - make some of the drunks and football supporters look quite placid!

Screaming out of the windows at passengers and generally being a bloody nuisance on the train.

 

[PermitToTravel]

And of course, there's no reason a cable thief couldn't pretend to be photting whenever a train passes.

 

[muz379]

And of course, there's no reason a cable thief couldn't pretend to be photting whenever a train passes.

Indeed a prospective cable theif might even be taking photos so that they can study the scene before coming back "tooled up" to do the job .

 

[Flamingo]

As a guard myself I fully agree with and share your concerns about being locked in a train with a load of drunks . I wish that there was a crack team of BTP officers on every train I have to work on Friday and Saturday nights.

On the flip side though I still think trespass should be treated relatively seriously . The driver might suspect it is just spotters but you can never be 100% sure .

As much as I dont like being locked in a train with idiots on a Friday and Saturday night . I also wouldn't like to have to get out of that train and walk along the ballast to see if that bang the driver has just brought the train to a grinding halt for is a trespasser that we have hit . Id hate to have to see the effects that would have on the driver if it is . And id hate even more if I would have to be locked on that train with the drunk maniacs in the middle of nowhere for hours because someone has decided to help themstelves to the signalling cable .

Oh, I agree, trespass is a major problem with potentially horrible consequences and BTP are right to prioritise it. However, some posters on the thread seem to think that (presumably because they don't have to deal with them) that after-dark anti-social behaviour is not a problem, and the BTP allocation of officers to have the majority of officers and highest profile during daylight is just fine and dandy.

 

[muz379]

Oh, I agree, trespass is a major problem with potentially horrible consequences and BTP are right to prioritise it. However, some posters on the thread seem to think that (presumably because they don't have to deal with them) that after-dark anti-social behaviour is not a problem, and the BTP allocation of officers to have the majority of officers and highest profile during daylight is just fine and dandy.

But then those are people who never have to work after dark on a Friday or Saturday like you or I so dont understand the need for a much greater presence at those times .

I usually find a more visible BTP presence at major stations on a Fri and all day Sat because of football and the like . I dont know if that is the same as you experience .

One of my Biggest issues with the BTP really is they are often guilty of the same attitude as platform staff - They will have had a word with someone about their behavior but then put them onto the train and away they go . I understand resources are tight sometimes , but sending someone to sober up and wait for the next train or just outright refusing them travel escorting them from the station and then making the person themselves responsible for their journey home would be a better option .

 

[swt_passenger]

That can't be it - the railway has been enclosed in the UK pretty much since it started being built.

The Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 required all railways to be fenced off from the land that they cross. There was also a requirement that such fencing be sufficient to prevent whatever livestock was normally found in adjacent fields getting onto the railway.

IIRC someone of a legal mind once explained that the original purpose of the fence line was to define the agreed extent of the railway to prevent the railway's employees encroaching on the local landowner's property, ie to try and prevent trespass in the opposite direction to what we are discussing; IYSWIM.

 

[DarloRich]

I have seen them at other locations and some of them do look ridiculous but they normally seem to be at the end of the platform out of the way.

Although not out of the way of the trains which is the key point

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't there is any need to be so rude about them, surely it is good that these kids (which I assume most of them are?) have a worthwhile hobby rather than taking drugs etc etc?

Kids!!!? From what I've seen they're at least in their late teens! As others have quite rightly said they are TOC employee wannabees. No harm or shame in being a rail enthusiast but there is absolutely no need as others have said to wear a hi-visibility vest. For what its worth when I was a spotter in the late 70's / 80's none of my peers bothered with them.

 

[Antman]

Kids!!!? From what I've seen they're at least in their late teens! As others have quite rightly said they are TOC employee wannabees. No harm or shame in being a rail enthusiast but there is absolutely no need as others have said to wear a hi-visibility vest. For what its worth when I was a spotter in the late 70's / 80's none of my peers bothered with them.

Are they?

I've no idea why they want to wear hi viz tops but I don't see it as a major problem..................it won't be long before we all have to wear a hi viz everytime we set foot outside the house anyway

 

[Flamingo]

Are they?

I've no idea why they want to wear hi viz tops but I don't see it as a major problem..................it won't be long before we all have to wear a hi viz everytime we set foot outside the house anyway

Well, if you can't see the problem then you probably should not be allowed outside your house without a minder, anyway.

You'd better just take our word for it - it's a problem.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Are they?

I've no idea why they want to wear hi viz tops but I don't see it as a major problem..................it won't be long before we all have to wear a hi viz everytime we set foot outside the house anyway

Perhaps they are the same people who feel they have to dress up as band members at popular concerts or wear football strips at matches.
I wonder if they wear a white coat to the dentist's surgery or theatre greens when they go to hospital to get their piles fixed?

 

[A-driver]

Perhaps they are the same people who feel they have to dress up as band members at popular concerts or wear football strips at matches.

I wonder if they wear a white coat to the dentist's surgery or theatre greens when they go to hospital to get their piles fixed?

To be fair if you turn up at a football match or concert 'dressed up' you are unlikely to be mistaken for a performer or player or confuse others working there. It is done out of support. Dressing up as rail staff is a different issue.

Try dressing up as a policeman at a large demonstration and see how long you last...

 

[TDK]

The main problem with any trespass incident is the danger to the trespasser and the cost to the railway, if a trespasser is reported then all trains must proceed with caution through that area and this causes delays and a huge cost to the system. The spotters I saw were certainly not in a safe position and could have fallen down the bank onto the tracks, I would not be surprised if the said trespassers post on this forum.

This needs to be stopped and the only way I can see if being stopped is to heavily fine the said individuals to prevent them doing it again.

As for the HV vests thing the spotters do this to gain the drivers attention so they sound the horn instead of doing that ridiculous arm action (if you knew what us rail workers think of those that do this you certainly wouldn't do it). The sounding of the horn causes residents to complain and measures have been put in place to reduce the noise pollution, by these spotters wearing HV at foot crossings or even when trespassing is also a nuisance.

From a drivers point I think those that trespass, those that put them selves in danger for a better photo, those that wear HV and those that do that ridiculous arm action are idiots, this in turn paints a sad view on spotters for many railway workers and this is why the spotters have a bad reputation with many.

 

[47802]

I am not defending trespass - it must be a nightmare when a driver spots anyone too close to the track, and dreads that they might jump in front of a train.

But why does UK bother so much about trespass when elsewhere in Europe there are often (but not always) no fences surrounding railways, and their attitude seems to be that if you get hurt, it is your own fault for being careless. On some secondary lines, they don't even have footbridges or subways to cross between platforms - you just cross the tracks.

As others have pointed out the Law requirements are somewhat different in this country, but when I was in America last year it was certainly different to see railway lines without fences.

I BR days I would trespass sometimes in more remote occasions but I always kept well away from the track, of course when did that I was aware that it was at my own risk and if I came to grief it would be my own fault, which is in my view how it should work with trespass, these days I wouldn't try it with the self righteous zero tolerance culture, blame culture, taken to be a potential terrorist etc.

 

[HowardGWR]

those that do that ridiculous arm action are idiots,

Any way of describing this (or a photo)?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The 'drunk and loud' person may also falling off a platform or attempting to board a moving train and is, in my view, a higher risk, and is also more likely be involved in violence. There has been at least one instance of a drunk person on a station being killed by a train in recent years, but I can't remember ever hearing of a 'spotter trespassing' being involved in a similar incident.

I'm not saying trespass is right, but should someone who is slightly the wrong side of the boundary fence be the biggest worry? Surely any action needs to be better targeted. How did anyone survive in days gone by when things like this were commonplace!

this will cause argument no doubt but a lot of polcing *on* stations especially staffed ones could be dealt with by the local force , but it's one of those professional flashpoints

we shall have to see if Police Scotlands grab for BTP responsibilities improves or degrades the service ( which will depend on how they do the integration and if / how they protect PTS trained officers from getting dragged away from roles which need them )

 

[Antman]

Well, if you can't see the problem then you probably should not be allowed outside your house without a minder, anyway.

You'd better just take our word for it - it's a problem.

Well if that really is all you've got to worry about.........................
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The main problem with any trespass incident is the danger to the trespasser and the cost to the railway, if a trespasser is reported then all trains must proceed with caution through that area and this causes delays and a huge cost to the system. The spotters I saw were certainly not in a safe position and could have fallen down the bank onto the tracks, I would not be surprised if the said trespassers post on this forum.

This needs to be stopped and the only way I can see if being stopped is to heavily fine the said individuals to prevent them doing it again.

As for the HV vests thing the spotters do this to gain the drivers attention so they sound the horn instead of doing that ridiculous arm action (if you knew what us rail workers think of those that do this you certainly wouldn't do it). The sounding of the horn causes residents to complain and measures have been put in place to reduce the noise pollution, by these spotters wearing HV at foot crossings or even when trespassing is also a nuisance.

From a drivers point I think those that trespass, those that put them selves in danger for a better photo, those that wear HV and those that do that ridiculous arm action are idiots, this in turn paints a sad view on spotters for many railway workers and this is why the spotters have a bad reputation with many.

Whether they are idiots or not is entirely subjective.........................I'd be more concerned about yobs hurling missiles at passing trains. And who knows whilst they are standing on the platforms doing "that ridiculous arm action" they might notice cable thieves, terrorists or goodness knows what!

Too much grumpy old man syndrome on here I think!

 

[Merseysider]

Whether they are idiots or not is entirely subjective.........................I'd be more concerned about yobs hurling missiles at passing trains. And who knows whilst they are standing on the platforms doing "that ridiculous arm action" they might notice cable thieves, terrorists or goodness knows what!

Too much grumpy old man syndrome on here I think!

TOC staff are also fully capable of noticing cable thieves, as are the BTP, Joe Public and CCTV cameras (where installed). But "terrorists"? You don't 'notice' a terrorist (unless they're tiptoing around due to the shoe bomb they've improvised). Not everyone with a big bushy beard, belt strapped with dynamite and religious attire will be a terrorist. There's every chance a terrorist could look just like me or you.

As said previously, spotters dressed like mandarins can cause delays because drivers think "who the hell is that on the tracks/platform/level crossing?"

Taking photos of trains doesn't necessarily mean you're an idiot, but acting in a way that could interfere with the running of the railway, does.

 

[Antman]

TOC staff are also fully capable of noticing cable thieves, as are the BTP, Joe Public and CCTV cameras (where installed). But "terrorists"? You don't 'notice' a terrorist (unless they're tiptoing around due to the shoe bomb they've improvised). Not everyone with a big bushy beard, belt strapped with dynamite and religious attire will be a terrorist. There's every chance a terrorist could look just like me or you.

As said previously, spotters dressed like mandarins can cause delays because drivers think "who the hell is that on the tracks/platform/level crossing?"

Taking photos of trains doesn't necessarily mean you're an idiot, but acting in a way that could interfere with the running of the railway, does.

They are more likely to notice any suspicious activity than the average passenger, and are they really likely to delay trains? Isn't this getting just a bit far fetched?

 

[Merseysider]

They are more likely to notice any suspicious activity than the average passenger, and are they really likely to delay trains? Isn't this getting just a bit far fetched?

Well if they go wandering off the end of the platform you can't really dispatch a train, else it'd run them over...

 

[Llanigraham]

Too much grumpy old man syndrome on here I think!

No, just PROFESSIONAL railway workers, who know the problems and delays that trespassers of all descriptions cause.

You are quite obviously NOT a railway worker!
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They are more likely to notice any suspicious activity than the average passenger, and are they really likely to delay trains? Isn't this getting just a bit far fetched?

And more proof of your status!

If I get a report of any trespassers I have to "CAUTION" the next train through the section to check for them and report back to me, and if they are still there and have not moved out of railway property all the other trains, until I get a report that they are clear.

Can I suggest that you find out the Rules of running the railway before you post!

 

[theblackwatch]

I usually find a more visible BTP presence at major stations on a Fri and all day Sat because of football and the like . I dont know if that is the same as you experience .

My experience is they will be about on Saturday daytime. A couple of years ago, I was at Preston one Saturday lunchtime and there was a swarm of about 20 officers lined up, ensuring the football fansl eft the station in an orderly manner. In the evening, I had the misfortune of travelling on a service from Preston to Colne, which was full of drunken fans who were intimidating to other passengers and shouting racist chants. It appeared the police had all gone home by then...

Going back to the original topic, and how highly dangerous these enthusiasts are, can anyone provide any statistics on the number of trespassing railway enthusiasts who have been seriously injured or killed by a train?

 

[Antman]

No, just PROFESSIONAL railway workers, who know the problems and delays that trespassers of all descriptions cause.

You are quite obviously NOT a railway worker!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And more proof of your status!

If I get a report of any trespassers I have to "CAUTION" the next train through the section to check for them and report back to me, and if they are still there and have not moved out of railway property all the other trains, until I get a report that they are clear.

Can I suggest that you find out the Rules of running the railway before you post!

No I am NOT a railway worker and I have NOT condoned trespassing.

As for the rules, I wasn't aware of any dress code for being on a platform.

 

[Temple Meads]

As for the rules, I wasn't aware of any dress code for being on a platform.

The official guidelines for enthusiasts specifically request that hi-vis is NOT worn.

 

[Antman]

The official guidelines for enthusiasts specifically request that hi-vis is NOT worn.

A reasonable enough request although not a rule

 

[deltic1989]

Try dressing up as a policeman at a large demonstration and see how long you last...

Whilst I see the point that is being made, I fail to see your comparison.
I am not aware of it being a criminal offence to impersonate a railway worker, where as it is a criminal offence to impersonate a police officer.

Any way of describing this (or a photo)?

It's a motion that includes moving the arm up and down with a closed fist. As one would when pulling a whistle chain on a steam locomotive.

 

[carriageline]

A reasonable enough request although not a rule

Please, tell me why you should wear HV on a platform? More importantly, why the "half vests" with a BR logo on the back?

Yes having enthusiasts around can be helpful in a very few scenarios. but it's a shame when these so called enthusiasts cause problems and the delay the thing they are enthusiastic about!!

No one has said having enthusiasts taking pics on a platform or a safe location is a bad thing. It's when they unnecessarily wear a hi vis vest (very sad in my opinion, even more sad when they have clearly gone out of their way to buy an old railway hv), or they trespass.

Or when they think they have the right to walk up to the SPT on the platform and ask for train times. Then complain when the phone is put down on them!

Whilst I see the point that is being made, I fail to see your comparison.

I am not aware of it being a criminal offence to impersonate a railway worker, where as it is a criminal offence to impersonate a police officer.

No criminal offence. It's just sad, and causes minor (sometimes not so minor) operational difficulties. Something which we expect enthusiasts to understand!

 

[Temple Meads]

A reasonable enough request although not a rule

To be honest it shouldn't matter whether it's an official 'rule' or not, an enthusiast who doesn't follow the guidelines - and therefore makes the sensible ones look bad too - doesn't really deserve to be on a station.