Splitting Southeastern

[Basil Jet]

Now that so many lines which used to have services to Charing Cross and Cannon Street only have services to one or the other, would it be possible and/or desirable to split Cannon Street services and Charing Cross services into two separate franchises?

 

[SargeNpton]

What happens to the SE services from Victoria and from St Pancras?

What happens to those numerous destinations that are routinely served by trains from both Cannon Street and Charing Cross?

What happens when Charing Cross is closed for engineering work and services are diverted to run from/to Cannon Street (or vice versa)?

What we currently see as the SE franchise is, to all intents and purposes, what has been in existence since 1923. If there were any real benefit in splitting it into small management units then I'm sure it would have been done years ago.

 

[Kite159]

Nope, would be a complete and utter waste of money for little or no benefits.

 

[Stephen42]

There's no lines that only have scheduled services to one of Charing Cross/Cannon Street. The Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines get both terminals in the peak along with the mainline services. That leaves Woolwich and Hayes, which have late evening services on some days of the week to the other terminal. With the rolling stock shared between the two it doesn't seem a helpful split.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Now that so many lines which used to have services to Charing Cross and Cannon Street only have services to one or the other, would it be possible and/or desirable to split Cannon Street services and Charing Cross services into two separate franchises?

What benefit are you seeking here in splitting the franchises?

 

[RichJF]

As a Southerner who often uses either operator, I'd actually rather it be merged & create a 'Greater Southeastern' type franchise with Southern.

Split Thamesink into its own franchise as it's already complicated. Just my sandbox wish though

 

[NSE]

If, and this is a big if, and not one I’d want, but, *if* there was a SE split, I think the only one that would have some operational sense would be splitting the SEML and CML as per historical groupings. So you’d have Charing Cross and Cannon Street as one and Victoria as the other. There would be a smattering of overlap at Ramsgate and Ashford, probably Chatham/Rainham. Still doesn’t help high speed services. Or the Medway valley, which could be either. Again, not something I’d suggest, but the only sort of split that would make some sense.

 

[30907]

If, and this is a big if, and not one I’d want, but, *if* there was a SE split, I think the only one that would have some operational sense would be splitting the SEML and CML as per historical groupings. So you’d have Charing Cross and Cannon Street as one and Victoria as the other. There would be a smattering of overlap at Ramsgate and Ashford, probably Chatham/Rainham. Still doesn’t help high speed services. Or the Medway valley, which could be either. Again, not something I’d suggest, but the only sort of split that would make some sense.

You've forgotten Orpington, Dover and Lewisham-Dartford - and now Maidstone E.

 

[miklcct]

I think we should split Southeastern into two. One franchise for mainline services, one TfL concession for metro services.

 

[etr221]

What we currently see as the SE franchise is, to all intents and purposes, what has been in existence since 1923. If there were any real benefit in splitting it into small management units then I'm sure it would have been done years ago.

I would say 1899, when the SECR came about combining the SER (which had built the extension from London Bridge to Charing Cross and Cannon Street, always under common management) and LCDR.

Unwinding that, all the subsequent links to combine them, and sorting out HighSpeed would be neither simple, nor advantageous.

 

[43066]

Now that so many lines which used to have services to Charing Cross and Cannon Street only have services to one or the other, would it be possible and/or desirable to split Cannon Street services and Charing Cross services into two separate franchises?

No. Although the two stations are more segregated in terms of service patterns these days, the operational side isn’t segregated at all; they’re both serviced by the same fleets of trains and the same train crew depots that interchangeably serve the rest of the SE network. Of the two locations, only Charing + has a crew depot, first/last CST train movements are worked from there.

Historically splitting Victoria and the Chatham Main Line off from the rest of Southeastern would have been easier, but Victoria as a depot now also does a lot of metro work to Charing Cross and Cannon St.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2022 ==

If, and this is a big if, and not one I’d want, but, *if* there was a SE split, I think the only one that would have some operational sense would be splitting the SEML and CML as per historical groupings. So you’d have Charing Cross and Cannon Street as one and Victoria as the other. There would be a smattering of overlap at Ramsgate and Ashford, probably Chatham/Rainham. Still doesn’t help high speed services. Or the Medway valley, which could be either. Again, not something I’d suggest, but the only sort of split that would make some sense.

Needless to say I typed my initial response before seeing this or I’d have quoted you!

 

[NSE]

You've forgotten Orpington, Dover and Lewisham-Dartford - and now Maidstone E.

I didn’t forget, I just throwing out a few locations. As you mention, there are more.

 

[Bald Rick]

The cost of splitting southeastern into ‘Metro’ and ‘the rest’ operations when TfL fancied it was in the order of hundreds of millions of pounds…