Split Tickets - but the tickets go beyond the split point

[stut]

Let me explain. Sorry if this is obvious one way or another, but I'm not sure. Stations changed to protect the innocent.

Let's say I want to travel from Milton Keynes Central to London. I've got dizzy from all the roundabouts.

I'm going to get a train that stops at Bletchley and Watford Junction.

However, I've got three tickets for the journey. Milton Keynes Central to Bow Brickhill, Bletchley to Watford Junction and Garston to Euston. 1 is valid MKC-BLY; 2 is valid BLY-WFJ; 3 is valid WFJ-EUS. But is there a problem if I want to use them for a single journey?

 

[AlterEgo]

No. That is fine.

 

[stut]

No. That is fine.

Thanks!

 

[andy33gmail]

Is there a need to declare what ticket you are “using” at any given moment? I know you have an obligation to show a ticket, and not to refund tickets you’ve used … but let’s the OP also had a Milton Keynes to Bletchley in their back pocket, that they later realised was redundant

 

[SaltAndVinegar]

Is there a need to declare what ticket you are “using” at any given moment? I know you have an obligation to show a ticket, and not to refund tickets you’ve used … but let’s the OP also had a Milton Keynes to Bletchley in their back pocket, that they later realised was redundant

If you are asked for your ticket, show the ticket (or any valid ticket you hold) that applies to the current point you are at in your journey when inspected. That's all you're obliged to do upon request.

 

[andy33gmail]

So between Bletchley and Bow Hill, notionally the OP would have to pick one and say *this* is the ticket I’m using?

 

[AlterEgo]

So between Bletchley and Bow Hill, notionally the OP would have to pick one and say *this* is the ticket I’m using?

They aren't travelling there in this example (look at a map to see where Bow Brickhill is), but on the WCML.

You should show all the tickets you are using. It's just easier that way and there isn't a good reason not to show them.

 

[Belperpete]

You should show all the tickets you are using. It's just easier that way and there isn't a good reason not to show them.

While you are not obliged to show all the tickets you hold, there can be cases where not doing so could cause problems. For example, if you have a ticket to Aberystwyth, and another from Machynlleth to Barmouth, showing only the Aberystwyth ticket could lead to you being directed to the wrong part of the train when it divides.

 

[greatkingrat]

They aren't travelling there in this example (look at a map to see where Bow Brickhill is), but on the WCML.

You should show all the tickets you are using. It's just easier that way and there isn't a good reason not to show them.

There have been many examples on this forum of staff incorrectly claiming particular combinations of tickets are not valid, particularly for more complex splits. Much easier to just show whichever ticket is valid at that particular time and avoid any potential hassle.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

While you are not obliged to show all the tickets you hold, there can be cases where not doing so could cause problems. For example, if you have a ticket to Aberystwyth, and another from Machynlleth to Barmouth, showing only the Aberystwyth ticket could lead to you being directed to the wrong part of the train when it divides.

Sure, but that is the travellers' responsibility.
If using overdistance split ticket someone surely has at least decent knowledge of what they are doing.

 

[Parallel]

If any of these tickets are AP products, you are not usually permitted to "finish short" on them as far as I am aware, but if they are walk-up products (anytime/off-peak/super off-peak), there should be no issues. E.g. if someone held an advance purchase ticket for Birmingham Moor Street to London but boarded at Solihull, this isn't permitted. (Not directly related but AP fares are often more from Solihull to London than from Moor Street to London so Chiltern can better compete with the West Coast Main Line). Happy to be corrected if anything I've said there is incorrect.

Does anyone know if starting short/finishing short relates to the break of journey restrictions for that origin-destination and product, as there are some walk up products available in other areas which don't permit a break of journey. I think Cardiff to Holyhead is one. Does that mean you can't start at Newport instead? Not technically a break but rather a start short.

 

[andy33gmail]

Two overlapping advances using the same train would be interesting … as you’re not stopping short … sort of

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know if starting short/finishing short relates to the break of journey restrictions for that origin-destination and product, as there are some walk up products available in other areas which don't permit a break of journey. I think Cardiff to Holyhead is one. Does that mean you can't start at Newport instead? Not technically a break but rather a start short.

Starting/ending short is indeed lumped in with break of journey. That's why Off Peak tickets from Euston to Lancaster and places north have break of journey restrictions but Preston and south don't, as the longer journeys have looser time restrictions. Avanti don't care if you want to pop to the shops between trains, but they do care if you board at Preston when Off Peaks from Preston aren't valid (but from Lancaster they are).

If you're already inside the system (using a split) and it's a walk up ticket nobody is going to really be able to enforce it, but a Delay Repay claim would be rightly refused in such a case. With Advances there won't be much that can be done about ending short if leaving the train and continuing on another, but staff may notice if you start short. But because of how Advances work, I'm not sure how you would benefit from overlapping them - such a split is unlikely to be cheaper than them not overlapping.

 

[yorkie]

Let me explain. Sorry if this is obvious one way or another, but I'm not sure. Stations changed to protect the innocent.

Let's say I want to travel from Milton Keynes Central to London. I've got dizzy from all the roundabouts.

I'm going to get a train that stops at Bletchley and Watford Junction.

However, I've got three tickets for the journey. Milton Keynes Central to Bow Brickhill, Bletchley to Watford Junction and Garston to Euston. 1 is valid MKC-BLY; 2 is valid BLY-WFJ; 3 is valid WFJ-EUS. But is there a problem if I want to use them for a single journey?

This is permitted, but if you remain on the same train and if staff inspect the ticket and realise you are using two tickets in this manner, they may become suspicious and look into it further.

If there is no loophole involved, then no problem, but if anyone looking into it in more detail would discover a loophole, then it would be strongly advised to step back a train, to avoid exposing the loophole and risk the loophole being closed in future.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

But because of how Advances work, I'm not sure how you would benefit from overlapping them - such a split is unlikely to be cheaper than them not overlapping.

Far weirder anomalies have been found in the past.

 

[yorkie]

If any of these tickets are AP products, ....

But because of how Advances work, I'm not sure how you would benefit from overlapping them - such a split is unlikely to be cheaper than them not overlapping.

It's been discussed before; see:

overlapping advance tickets

What do people think of travelling with overlapping advance tickets - from Coventry - Carlisle - the cheapest tickets being Coventry - Preston advance & Crewe - Carlisle advance. (The tickets being on the same train). The only problem I can see is not being able to sit in two seats at the same...

www.railforums.co.uk

Is this allowed? Two Advance tickets overlapping on same journey

I am going on a little break to Berwick-upon-Tweed with a friend in September. Because she lives in London, I was able to buy her return ticket some time ago with the 24-weeks Advances. She said that Standard Class would be fine, so I booked her a seat in coach B. (I am a bit more au fait...

www.railforums.co.uk

Overlapping Advance tickets OK?

I'm guessing the answer is yes, but just wondering if it's OK to hold two overlapping Advance tickets, on the same train. For example Newcastle - Darlington, and Durham - King's Cross (the train in question stops at both).

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[stut]

Starting/ending short is indeed lumped in with break of journey. That's why Off Peak tickets from Euston to Lancaster and places north have break of journey restrictions but Preston and south don't, as the longer journeys have looser time restrictions. Avanti don't care if you want to pop to the shops between trains, but they do care if you board at Preston when Off Peaks from Preston aren't valid (but from Lancaster they are).

If you're already inside the system (using a split) and it's a walk up ticket nobody is going to really be able to enforce it, but a Delay Repay claim would be rightly refused in such a case. With Advances there won't be much that can be done about ending short if leaving the train and continuing on another, but staff may notice if you start short. But because of how Advances work, I'm not sure how you would benefit from overlapping them - such a split is unlikely to be cheaper than them not overlapping.

Understood. Project Oval seems to have opened up a lot of starting short journeys (which station staff are very aware of and happy to work with).

For Advances, I've had quite a few split Advances recently (simple ones - Advance to Advance, same train, same split point). You'll understand why I'm reluctant to post the details though!

This is permitted, but if you remain on the same train and if staff inspect the ticket and realise you are using two tickets in this manner, they may become suspicious and look into it further.

If there is no loophole involved, then no problem, but if anyone looking into it in more detail would discover a loophole, then it would be strongly advised to step back a train, to avoid exposing the loophole and risk the loophole being closed in future.

Understood, I don't want to spoil a good thing (like we saw with LNER workarounds recently). In this case, it's taking advantage of a flow's pricing being set by a different operator, offering different ticket types, but I do understand how these things can be stamped out with things like operator restrictions on the cheaper tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Understood. Project Oval seems to have opened up a lot of starting short journeys (which station staff are very aware of and happy to work with).

The thing that surprises me about Oval is how there are simple split anomalies in Anytime Day Singles. This is about the simplest thing you could imagine not to botch, yet it's botched. There's one I use every time I go to London and save a couple of quid, I won't name it but it's not exactly hard to get it.

I've just checked, and there's also still one on the Aylesbury Vale line. It was there before Ovalisation but you'd think they would have fixed it! The WCML one wasn't there before, Oval introduced it, which is even worse!

 

[CyrusWuff]

The thing that surprises me about Oval is how there are simple split anomalies in Anytime Day Singles. This is about the simplest thing you could imagine not to botch, yet it's botched. There's one I use every time I go to London and save a couple of quid, I won't name it but it's not exactly hard to get it.

Single fares for Oval have been set by taking the existing Off-Peak Day Return and Anytime Day Return and halving them. There's been no attempt made to fix existing anomalies at the same time. Indeed, it's introduced a whole load more.

I suspect that may come at a later date, if TOCs are allowed to do so.

 

[Haywain]

Single fares for Oval have been set by taking the existing Off-Peak Day Return and Anytime Day Return and halving them.

It's not necessarily been as simple as that where there were also Super Off Peak Day Returns prior to Oval.

 

[stut]

It's not necessarily been as simple as that where there were also Super Off Peak Day Returns prior to Oval.

That's it - so it can often be cheaper to get a Super Off-Peak Day Return from the next (non-Oval) station up the line, than to pay the contactless fare.

Though (and this is drifitng OT) the big saver with Oval is of course the ability to use a Network Railcard for the return portion.

 

[Haywain]

That's it - so it can often be cheaper to get a Super Off-Peak Day Return from the next (non-Oval) station up the line, than to pay the contactless fare.

All I would say is that it can pay to look at the fares options from adjacent/nearby stations if one is on the edge of the new Oval area.