Split tickets at pick up only stations-what are the rules?

[158757]

Hi,

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but I have used the search and can't find it.

I am looking at doing London Liverpool St-Stanstead Airport on Sat 19th Feb, I'll be taking the 1310 departure from Liverpool St. This calls at Tottenham Hale [Pick up only], Bishops Stortford and Stanstead Airport.

I am looking to split my tickets to reduce the cost. I will have a Z1-6 Travelcard, so if I split at Tottenham Hale and Bishops Stortford is this a valid combination, given that the train calls at the station, or not? It's only £1.50 difference if I only split once (LST-BIS, BIS-SSD) so I'll probably just do this to be safe, but what are the rules on this (and set down stations out of interest).

Also could anyone confirm if the £9.70 Super off peak rtn from LST-CBG is valid for a break of journey? The only help on any ticket website is this:

Break of journey:
You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel with this ticket unless restricted for the journey you are making. If you intend to start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station, please call 08457 48 49 50 to check if it is available on your specific journey


Many Thanks as always

 

[northwichcat]

If I read that correctly you could be refused platform access to the 13:10 at Liverpool St because the train does not call at Tottenham Hale to set down.

 

[clagmonster]

I would investigate the fares for Boundary Zone 6-Bishops Stortford/Stansted rather than splitting at Tottenham Hale.

 

[158757]

I would investigate the fares for Boundary Zone 6-Bishops Stortford/Stansted rather than splitting at Tottenham Hale.

Thanks, how can I find these online (if at all). I've now had a change of plan anyway but I would still be interested to know how split ticketing works when splitting at pick up only/set down stations as technically the train is still calling at that station.

 

[clagmonster]

The wording of the relevent parts of Condition 19 is as follows:
"19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
...
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10)."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Now, if the train calls at the changeover station we are valid. Sadly, calling at a station is not defined in Appendix A or elsewhere as far as I know, so the best bet is using the common English definition (in this case from the OED:
"[no object, with adverbial of place] chiefly British (of a person) pay a brief visit:
...
(of a train or coach) stop at (a specified station or stations) on a particular route:
the 8.15 service to Paddington, calling at Reading"
http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0117190#m_en_gb0117190

Nowhere does this say that the train has to set down passengers at said station, merely that the train has to stop at the specified station. I suppose it could be valid on the basis that nobody has thought to make it invalid.

 

[323235]

Regardless of others views on this I personally wouldn't Split at a Pick Up/Set Down only stations unless it is a split that does not require the train to stop as you could end up in your case foe example having to buy a new ticket from Liverpool Street - Bishops Stortford or in other cases getting excessed.

Therefore as mentioned in this case a Boundary Zone 6 - Bishops Stortford is the best option. To find out the fare for this you just need to look at the fare from any Zone 6 station.

 

[clagmonster]

In most cases, the fare is the same as from the station furthest out in Zone 6 (if that makes sense). However, there are exceptions, the best bet is to check at a booking office (or pay ATOC for a NFM08 CD).

 

[asylumxl]

A CDR from Boundary Zone 6 to Stansted is £14.60. Tottenham Hale to Stansted CDR is £19.20. Better off getting the Boundary Zone ticket . This is valid even if the train does not stop at the Zone 6 station.

These are without discounts, but can be applied.

The break in journey, it says Yes.

Ticket:_____SUPER OFF-PEAK DAY
Code - C1R/CBA/GDR/SCO/SRR
Class - STANDARD
Single/Return - RETURN
Outward/Return Validity -
Day - DATE ON TICKET
Time - SEE BELOW
Break of Journey:
Out/Rtn - YES
Pre-Booking Req: NONE

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For what it's worth, my opinion is that because any given train would either call to set down, call to pick up or call to set down and pick up it is valid, as, in all three cases, it calls at the station in question. There is no requirement for you to get off the train at the 'changeover station' and your journey is not to that station, but to another station further on.

that said, get a ticket from Boundary Zone 6, it'll be cheaper.

 

[34D]

Barry Doe has previously commented on this situation, and concurs with hairy above - that because one is not alighting at a pick-up only stop, one is fine to split tickets at a station where the train calls.

However, this is the sort of scenario that the non-confrontational people may choose to avoid. Some London termini have set barriers to reject 'local' tickets that are valid at the station, and I can see the barrier staff being confused.

Boundary Zone 6 is by far the best. There is nothing wrong with the further split at Stortford also.

 

[EltonRoad]

I am surprised Barry Doe said that, and would be surprised if it is valid to split at a pick-up only station.

eg If you buy a Euston - Watford Junction return and Watford Junction to Manchester return, presumably Virgin aren't going to get any revenue from the Euston - Watford ticket, so how can it be valid on their trains?

 

[b0b]

presumably Virgin aren't going to get any revenue from the Euston - Watford ticket, so how can it be valid on their trains?

revenue splitting does not factor into validity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If a Liverpool-Patricroft single is excessed to Liverpool-Manchester single, both EMT and TPE would have allow the passenger to travel on their services, but as the original ticket is not valid on their services and the excess is £0.00, they would get no money for it.

 

[LexyBoy]

If a Liverpool-Patricroft single is excessed to Liverpool-Manchester single, both EMT and TPE would have allow the passenger to travel on their services, but as the original ticket is not valid on their services and the excess is £0.00, they would get no money for it.

Is that how it works? I would have thought that the process of issuing an excess would factor in any changes in revenue allocation, but I don’t claim to know how it works! Does the money doesn’t go straight to the TOC’s coffers as soon as the ticket is bought?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whoever sells the ticket gets a share, but as that is unknown in this example I have ignored it.

As I understand it, the selling TOC/agent is billed by ATOC for all the fares that it has sold, the money from all the fares across the country is then distributed according to who runs the service and who sold the tickets. In the case of Liverpool-Patricroft, aside from the sellers comission, the rest will go to Northern. The excess fare is similarly split, but as that is of no value, no money is given out.

 

[bb21]

If that is the case, I'm surprised that no TOC has challenged the process.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm sure Yorkie or someone will be along to say I am right or wrong (I'll happily be corrected if needed, I'm no expert on this aspect of fares), but that is how I understand it.

 

[yorkie]

eg If you buy a Euston - Watford Junction return and Watford Junction to Manchester return, presumably Virgin aren't going to get any revenue from the Euston - Watford ticket, so how can it be valid on their trains?

Well, I was going to post, but b0b beat me to it...

revenue splitting does not factor into validity.

...indeed, Virgin get no money from a EUS-WFJ season but there is no doubt that such a season plus a ticket from WFJ to, say, Milton Keynes (for which Virgin would get very little) would be valid on a non-stop train from Euston to Milton Keynes. In the Manchester example, Virgin are getting nearly all the money they would if the customer hadn't split.

But, it's academic anyway as b0b hit the nail on the head!

Regarding the issue of where the money from excesses go...

bb21 / hairyhandedfool - unfortunately I don't know the intricacies of revenue allocation when it comes to how ORCATS works, other than what I've read from various sources. I find it interesting however it doesn't determine validity so has little value to the customer, but the really big problem is that this sort of info is kept secret, even from rail staff.

 

[158757]

Thank you for all responses, much appreciated.