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Split ticketing Southern/Gatwick Express

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James Wake

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Hi everyone,
Tonight I caught the 1815 Gatwick Express from VIC with a Gold Card discounted London Victoria to Clapham single, and then my Annual Zones 2-6 Gold Card from Three Bridges. Can you do this under the split ticketing rule. I was told yes by the platform assistant at VIC, but no by the staff member at Gatwick, but he didn't seem to think I'd come off the Express. If it isn't I won't do it again, of course.
Many thanks
James
 
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sarahj

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Yes, its allowed as one of the tickets is a season. If it was two singles, then no.
 

hairyhandedfool

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This is not specifically a spilt ticketing issue. It is a Goldcard discount issue.

The Goldcard is essentially a Network Railcard, and a Network Railcard discounted tickets are NOT valid on Gatwick Express services between Victoria and Gatwick (this is different to going to Haywards Heath or beyond). I'm not certain offhand if these restrictions apply to Goldcards or not. I can't find anything to confirm either way right now, but when I worked in London, commonly held belief amongst ticket trained staff was that the Goldcard was a Network Railcard and if that is true, the discounted ticket was not valid on Gatwick Express and thus the combination was not valid.

I would not expect a Platform Assistant to know this, they are not usually ticket trained.
 
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island

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This is not specifically a spilt ticketing issue. It is a Goldcard discount issue.

The Goldcard is essentially a Network Railcard, and a Network Railcard discounted tickets are NOT valid on Gatwick Express services between Victoria and Gatwick (this is different to going to Haywards Heath or beyond). I'm not certain offhand if these restrictions apply to Goldcards or not. I can't find anything to confirm either way right now, but when I worked in London, commonly held belief amongst ticket trained staff was that the Goldcard was a Network Railcard and if that is true, the discounted ticket was not valid on Gatwick Express and thus the combination was not valid.

I would not expect a Platform Assistant to know this, they are not usually ticket trained.
The Network Railcard terms and conditions make some (oblique) references to the restrictions on use on Gatwick Express, and do not include Gatwick Express in the list of TOCs accepting it (let's leave arguments about Gatwick Express not being a TOC aside please).

The Gold Card terms and conditions, on the other hand, explicitly include Gatwick Express in the list of participating Train Companies.

Assuming the OP meant a single from London Terminals to Clapham Junction, rather than to Clapham, the ticket combination was valid. I don't see a particular reason to discuss this in future with any staff members at Gatwick Airport, just put your ticket through the barrier, or show it if it is rejected.
 

hairyhandedfool

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The Network Railcard website specifically mentions validity of Network Railcards on Gatwick Express services. The NRES website provides a direct link to the Network Railcard website.

Network Railcard website said:
Train Companies providing Network Railcard discounts:

c2c

Chiltern Railways †

CrossCountry †

East Coast †

East Midland Trains

First Capital Connect

First Great Western †

Greater Anglia †

London Midland

London Overground

Southeastern

Southern

South West Trains (including Island Line)

Virgin Trains †

Network Railcard discounts are available for journeys on Gatwick Express services between Gatwick Airport and Brighton. On Mondays to Fridays (except Bank Holidays) passengers holding Network Railcard discounted tickets can travel on selected Gatwick Express train services from London Victoria to Haywards Heath or beyond during the evening peak - see Easements for further details.

† Some restrictions apply on services provided by these train companies.

On the subject of Goldcards, the NRES website has a link to 'the Network Railcard Area' that does not work (at least for me), but by going through the Railcard website it shows Gatwick Express services, between Victoria and Gatwick, as a black line rather than a red line, with the key that Network Railcards are not valid over the black lines. There is no indication of Goldcards being allowed or not on this page.
 

Stats

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Hi everyone,
Tonight I caught the 1815 Gatwick Express from VIC with a Gold Card discounted London Victoria to Clapham single, and then my Annual Zones 2-6 Gold Card from Three Bridges. Can you do this under the split ticketing rule. I was told yes by the platform assistant at VIC, but no by the staff member at Gatwick, but he didn't seem to think I'd come off the Express. If it isn't I won't do it again, of course.
I would be very careful about using tickets for which you are unsure of validity on the Gatwick Express. It is very rare these days for the Passenger Service Agent not to check tickets, and in recent weeks I have noticed increased ticket checks by RPIs.
 

N Levers

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To save any fuss in the future (and to have a more crowded journey) you could get the xx.17 / xx.47 departures to Littlehampton & Eastbourne/Ore which only take 1 minute longer...
 

yorkie

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The ticket combination is indisputably valid, it has been confirmed by a Southern Guard. There is absolutely no doubt the ticket combination is valid.

If a ticket inspector ever claims it isn't, politely co-operate and I will be more than happy to proof read a letter to Southern (and Passenger Focus, ATOC, etc as necessary) to get any money back, an apology and promise of staff being suitably trained.
 

James Wake

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Just a few quick points:
I did mean a single to Clapham Junction
I was actually heading towards the 1817 service on platform 16, but seeing the amount of people in front of me, even though it was a 12 car train, I then noticed the side gate from the Southern platform approach to the GEx platforms was open, so I thought I would try. Worth it, even though it was a 5 car train, I had the front coach to myself, there were only about another 15-20 people on the train. Does anyone think I should try and get a letter from Southern to carry with me as proof?
 

yorkie

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Worth it, even though it was a 5 car train, I had the front coach to myself
You're doing everyone a favour by doing this, as the otherwise empty Express trains are just carting fresh air! :lol:The DfT are too scared to properly integrate them into the network. No trains should terminate at Gatwick without very good reason.
there were only about another 15-20 people on the train.
Because too many people have been brainwashed into thinking the Gatwick Express is some sort of premium train which doesn't accept normal tickets!
Does anyone think I should try and get a letter from Southern to carry with me as proof?
There's really no need.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If this is all 'indisputable' and there are 'no doubts' about Goldcard validity on Gatwick Express, why does the NRES journey planner disagree with you Yorkie? After all, NRES is the official source of rail information....
 

yorkie

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National Rail Enquiries website states Gold Cards can be used on Gatwick Express.

Southern's Gatwick Express website even promotes them!

The journey planner isn't always correct!
 

hairyhandedfool

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I don't disagree that Goldcard discounted tickets can be used on Gatwick Express services, the Network Railcard can be too......

In any case, the fact that the official journey planner says no creates a doubt because it could be correct, and, if that is the case, the validity is not as indisputable as you claim.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But is it not the case that the only required use of NRE is for checking obscure/unusual routeings (and I believe Passenger Focus are not exactly best pleased about the ATOC instructions which specify that)?

So can we now say that NRES is only the official source of rail information when it suits?
 

island

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So can we now say that NRES is only the official source of rail information when it suits?

Heh. There are plenty of members of this forum who only want to abide by various official documents and websites when it suits...
 

Stats

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Gold Card discounted tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express. The Terms and Conditions pdf valid from 2 January 2012.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46573.aspx

Terms & Conditions of Issue for Reduced Price Tickets issued in conjunction with an Annual Gold Card and Annual Gold Card Travelcard – Effective 2 January 2012

4. Where Can You Travel?
4.1. Travel is permitted on train services operated by the following train operating companies:-
c2c ChilternRailways CrossCountry East Coast East Midlands Trains First Capital Connect First Great Western Gatwick Express Heathrow Connect Heathrow Express Island Line London Midland London Overground National Express East Anglia Southeastern Southern South West Trains Virgin Trains

for travel between stations in the area bounded by:- Weymouth, Exeter St David’s (via Honiton), Bedwyn, Didcot Parkway, Oxford, Banbury, Long Buckby, Bedford, Huntingdon, Cambridge, Manningtree and Harwich, and also between the following stations:- 
Cambridge to Kings Lynn inclusive. 
Dorchester West to Yeovil Pen Mill inclusive 
Oxford to Worcester Foregate Street inclusive 
Ryde Pier Head to Shanklin inclusive.
NB. a map of this area is included in the Network Railcard leaflet, available from most participating stations.

4.2. To / from the Isle of Wight on through rail / sea journeys on:-
Red Funnel ships and Red Jet services between Southampton and East or West Cowes,
and
Wightlink ships between Portsmouth Harbour and Ryde Pier Head, and between Lymington Pier and Yarmouth.
Special higher prices apply for accompanied children on these services

4.3. On Transport for London services as follows:- 
on London Underground, Docklands Light Railway, London Buses and London Tramlink when the ticket held is an Off-Peak Day Travelcard 
on London Underground and/or Docklands Light Railways services where the corresponding full priced single or return ticket permits.

4.4. Reduced price tickets may be used in conjunction with any other ticket or tickets for journeys to a destination beyond the defined area (as shown above in 4.1) in accordance with the National Conditions of Carriage, Clause 17.

4.5. Reduced price tickets are NOT valid on: a) Rail/Air Link Coach services.
b) Special services and excursions which are not in the public timetable.
c) Ferry services - except those shown in Clause 4.2 above.
d) Some Monday to Friday services from London Kings Cross, London Liverpool Street, London Paddington and London St Pancras.
e) Some northbound First Capital Connect services Mondays to Fridays.
 

tsr

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So can we now say that NRES is only the official source of rail information when it suits?

The fact that it claims to be "definitive" does not mean it is accurate, and indeed any conditions which you agree to as part of your ticket purchase for travel on the National Rail network may differ from the guidance given.

I regret I do not note any claim by NRE that all the information on their website is compliant with the conditions of a contract you may enter into for the purposes of travel on the National Rail network.

Heh. There are plenty of members of this forum who only want to abide by various official documents and websites when it suits...

At risk of repeating myself, I speak for myself only when I say that times "when it suits" will equate directly with times when the guidance given on these sorts of matters is in accordance with the conditions of any contract which I have agreed to enter into, including any agreement with another party with regards to a promotional or discounted fare.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Gold Card discounted tickets are valid on the Gatwick Express. The Terms and Conditions pdf valid from 2 January 2012.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46573.aspx

And for your next trick you will tell us the Network Railcard is valid on Gatwick Express too.....:roll:

The fact that it claims to be "definitive" does not mean it is accurate, and indeed any conditions which you agree to as part of your ticket purchase for travel on the National Rail network may differ from the guidance given.

I regret I do not note any claim by NRE that all the information on their website is compliant with the conditions of a contract you may enter into for the purposes of travel on the National Rail network....

In some other threads, you may have noticed that some actions and advice (from regular contributors as much as anyone else) have been defended on the basis that it is the official source, even in the face of ticket trained railway staff saying otherwise (which is not just me before anyone suggests it).
 

James Wake

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Today I found myself again in the same situation at Victoria, going for the 1830 but arrived in time for the 1815, the guy on the gate at VIC was polite and pleasant, he seemed to take one look at my tickets and opened the gate for me so I could run onto the 1815 again. Around 12 people on it.
 

yorkie

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Around 12 people on it.
There was a Southern-operated Gatwick Express train (other than those which go to Brighton) with a double figure number of people on board?! I don't believe it - I demand a recount! :lol:

I wonder how many had paid the so-called "premium" ;)
 

sarahj

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There was a Southern-operated Gatwick Express train (other than those which go to Brighton) with a double figure number of people on board?! I don't believe it - I demand a recount! :lol:

I wonder how many had paid the so-called "premium" ;)

Still remember one night, working night shifts. Gatwick express dont run through the night. However, on one train came across a group of swedes. They had bought their gatwick express tickets from the currency exchange place. They had paid full wack. If they had bought from me on the train (no gateline back then) they would have got got group 4 (1/2 price on a southern only ticket) and two kids for a quid. I did ask where they had bought their tickets. They told me, plus the person behind the counter had told them the gatwick express's run all through the night. TBH I was very shocked at this. Rip off britain at its worst.

Back then on nights you could pick up over £4000 of sales on a 7 day run. With all passengers being sold the cheapest correct ticket. But all swings and roundabouts. If we were selling so much, imagine how many were travelling on the FCC's with no conductor, and thus no tickets.

These days in the land of gates at Gatwick, on nightsift you now pick up the odd ticket here and there. Everyone at Gatwick now has a ticket.
 
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island

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Back then on nights you could pick up over £4000 of sales on a 7 day run. With all passengers being sold the cheapest correct ticket. But all swings and roundabouts. If we were selling so much, imagine how many were travelling on the FCC's with no conductor, and thus no tickets.

These days in the land of gates at Gatwick, on nightsift you now pick up the odd ticket here and there. Everyone at Gatwick now has a ticket.

Soon enough you won't even be able to charge up people on FCC tickets; once the franchises merge I would expect those to vanish sharpish.
 

jon0844

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When I came back from Barcelona last month (on a Wednesday night, around 11pm) I was waiting for a FCC train (0016?) and was surprised to see the a Gatwick Express was 10 cars. I think 2 or 3 people got on, and all on the same carriage!
 

Kentish Paul

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Flew back to Gatwick from Portugal recently and there was a small stand at the boarding gate selling Gatwick Express tickets for 19.50 euros. I think they were singles but my memory fades.
 

neilmc

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Easyjet has a link to airport connections which puts you on to the Gatwick Express page - a visitor to Britain would quite reasonably conclude that this is the only sensible way to get into London from Gatwick. I struggle to see why we need a separate train company providing this flow creating much confusion regarding ticket validity when there is also a very regular and fast "ordinary" train service costing less, or am I stating the obvious?
 

button_boxer

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Easyjet has a link to airport connections which puts you on to the Gatwick Express page - a visitor to Britain would quite reasonably conclude that this is the only sensible way to get into London from Gatwick. I struggle to see why we need a separate train company providing this flow creating much confusion regarding ticket validity when there is also a very regular and fast "ordinary" train service costing less, or am I stating the obvious?

The usual argument for airport express services (anywhere, not just Gatwick) is to segregate the airport passengers from the commuters. A visiting tourist who has just arrived in the country, probably jet-lagged and hauling lots of luggage, doesn't want to spend ages trying to decipher departure boards etc. to ensure that they get on the right train going in the right direction, fight their way on to a packed train with a short dwell time and have to try and work out which stop they need to alight at. An non-stop airport express means there's an empty train waiting in the platform, operated by stock designed with enough luggage capacity, and with no ambiguity about where it's going or which stop you need to get off at.

To someone unfamiliar with the rail system of the country they've just arrived in this convenience is worth the price premium.
 

Kentish Paul

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The usual argument for airport express services (anywhere, not just Gatwick) is to segregate the airport passengers from the commuters. A visiting tourist who has just arrived in the country, probably jet-lagged and hauling lots of luggage, doesn't want to spend ages trying to decipher departure boards etc. to ensure that they get on the right train going in the right direction, fight their way on to a packed train with a short dwell time and have to try and work out which stop they need to alight at. An non-stop airport express means there's an empty train waiting in the platform, operated by stock designed with enough luggage capacity, and with no ambiguity about where it's going or which stop you need to get off at.

To someone unfamiliar with the rail system of the country they've just arrived in this convenience is worth the price premium.

Whilst I agree to some extent as regards jet lag/luggage/language etc, surely in this day and age a little research on the internet can enable you to arrive at your destination with some information of what to do and how to do it.

I find it hard to believe that someone arriving at Gatwick (or any other UK airport) would have no idea how to continue their onward journey wether to London or anywhere else in the UK. :roll:
 

button_boxer

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Whilst I agree to some extent as regards jet lag/luggage/language etc, surely in this day and age a little research on the internet can enable you to arrive at your destination with some information of what to do and how to do it.

I find it hard to believe that someone arriving at Gatwick (or any other UK airport) would have no idea how to continue their onward journey wether to London or anywhere else in the UK. :roll:

Absolutely, and sufficiently price-sensitive customers will no doubt do the necessary research in advance, but "never underestimate the power of human stupidity"...

It works the other way too, of course - it's a benefit to commuters that they don't have heavily laden confused tourists trying to board their packed commuter train at rush hour.
 
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