Split Ticketing on Set Down Only Trains

[Wirral]

I have seen numerous references to this but no definative answer. Can any of you advise what the answer is.

Is it allowed to split a ticket on a train that is designated as setting down only at a station?

Interested on the North West main line using Virgin but suppose this is a principle across the whole network.

Virgin are using this restriction on numerous services at peak time around Watford, Milton Keynes.

Thanks

 

[Max]

I believe that, in theory, your second ticket could be deemed invalid and you could be asked to buy a new single ticket from the last station where the train called to pick up passengers.

However, it's a very grey area, and some commentators on here (and outside, Barry Doe for example), have concluded that because the train calls at the station the conditions of the NRCoC are fulfilled (ie. there's no specific requirement for the train to stop for passengers to board). This is a useful reference point: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=41415

 

[Wirral]

Seems strange after all this time this is still a grey area as it is fundamental to a tickets validity.

Would of thought when these restrictions such as set down/pick up only were being considered the likely consequences would of been thought of and any guideance given before they were allowed to be put in place.

Who would now make this final decision, surprised it has not been challenged legally.

 

[All Line Rover]

ATOC don't approve of it, nor do Virgin Trains. I wouldn't risk it myself.

 

[Wirral]

ATOC don't approve of it, nor do Virgin Trains. I wouldn't risk it myself.

I am sure they do not as it is not in there interest reducing the cost of travel, if they could they would get shut of split ticketing as well.

Seems bizarre as a user of the railways but not an employee that such important things are left unresolved.

Restrictions should not be imposed such as set down rules without the impact on tickets being advised before hand.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The NRCoC states that the train must call where the tickets change over, there is no requirement to get off and on again or be able to get off and on again.

 

[Wirral]

Thanks all for your assistance with this.

 

[furlong]

Indeed I think this makes sense if you see set down / pick up only restrictions as a way of reducing the number of passengers on busy trains, for example, by requiring that local passengers avoid long-distance trains. As such, what matters is whether or not you actually get on or off at a restricted station, not the ticket(s) or fare(s) paid.

 

[All Line Rover]

The NRCoC states that the train must call where the tickets change over, there is no requirement to get off and on again or be able to get off and on again.

That is not the correct question, though. A train calling at a station, and the validity of tickets to/from that station, are different things. The question that should be asked is: Is a London Euston to Milton Keynes ticket valid on a train which is pick-up-only at Milton Keynes (o.e.)? ATOC and Virgin say it isn't. I can't find any written evidence to the contrary, so it is hard to argue with.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with hairyhandedfool's interpretation, however I would not advise this split due to the hassle it might cause.

All Line Rover, to counter your question, consider other section 19 types, such as 19C. The individual tickets in that case aren't valid on their own for the sections they cover, as the train does not stop there, but the combination is. I think normal splits at setdown/pickup only calls is analogous.

 

[jkdd77]

That is not the correct question, though. A train calling at a station, and the validity of tickets to/from that station, are different things. The question that should be asked is: Is a London Euston to Milton Keynes ticket valid on a train which is pick-up-only at Milton Keynes (o.e.)? ATOC and Virgin say it isn't. I can't find any written evidence to the contrary, so it is hard to argue with.

I would argue that "the written evidence" you seek is Condition 19(b) of the NRCoC.

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
...
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another;

In this case, the passenger's actual journey is from London to a station beyond Milton Keynes Central.

It's true that the London- Milton Keynes ticket wouldn't be valid on its own for that part of the journey, but, at least in my non-expert opinion, the combination makes it valid for the entire journey subject to the train stopping and to the relevant restriction codes in case of Off-Peak tickets.

I agree with maniacmartin's reasoning in the previous post, which I hadn't seen when I started composed my own post.

To give a more detailed analogy, a London- Watford Junction return ticket clearly wouldn't be valid on its own on any Virgin services, but could nonetheless, courtesy of Condition 19(c), validly be used in conjunction with a season ticket (or, in theory, leisure travel pass) covering the remainder of the journey from Watford Junction to an 'open stop' station beyond Milton Keynes.

In both cases, the entire journey is covered by the combination of tickets used, so that clause would appear to be satisfied as well, and it is satisfied regardless of whether the first ticket would be valid for disembarking at the switchover station, so long as Condition 19 is met. To interpret "cover the entire journey" in the first sentence of Condition 19 to mean that the tickets used must each be valid for the specific part of the journey as if it were a separate journey in its own right would be to effectively nullify 19(c) season/ non-season splits at non-stopping stations, and, as much as Virgin and ATOC might want to do so, I don't believe such an interpretation is tenable.

I don't see how the literal wording of Condition 19(b) could reasonably be interpreted to forbid splitting at 'set down/ pick up only' stations; that said, the usual health warnings apply about attempting such a journey in practice.

 

[All Line Rover]

I agree with hairyhandedfool's interpretation, however I would not advise this split due to the hassle it might cause.

HHF makes a perfectly valid, if irrelevant, point. His point does nothing to address the question of whether or not the tickets are valid.

All Line Rover, to counter your question, consider other section 19 types, such as 19C. The individual tickets in that case aren't valid on their own for the sections they cover, as the train does not stop there, but the combination is. I think normal splits at setdown/pickup only calls is analogous.

19c, which allows tickets that would ordinarily be invalid to be used as part of a valid combination, has got nothing to do with this, though. It is an exception to the rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's true that the London- Milton Keynes ticket wouldn't be valid on its own for that part of the journey, but, at least in my non-expert opinion, the combination makes it valid for the entire journey subject to the train stopping and to the relevant restriction codes in case of Off-Peak tickets.

Whilst I would like to agree with this, I can't. There is nothing to support such reasoning.

To give a more detailed analogy, a London- Watford Junction return ticket clearly wouldn't be valid on its own on any Virgin services, but could nonetheless, courtesy of Condition 19(c), validly be used in conjunction with a season ticket (or, in theory, leisure travel pass) covering the remainder of the journey from Watford Junction to an 'open stop' station beyond Milton Keynes.

Of course this is valid, but this is a completely different scenario because it involves a season ticket!

In both cases, the entire journey is covered by the combination of tickets used, so that clause would appear to be satisfied as well, and it is satisfied regardless of whether the first ticket would be valid for disembarking at the switchover station, so long as Condition 19 is met. To interpret "cover the entire journey" in the first sentence of Condition 19 to mean that the tickets used must each be valid for the specific part of the journey as if it were a separate journey in its own right would be to effectively nullify 19(c) season/ non-season splits at non-stopping stations, and, as much as Virgin and ATOC might want to do so, I don't believe such an interpretation is tenable.

Again, how? Unless you are using a ticket which allows you to take advantage of 19c, a London to Milton Keynes ticket is not valid on a train which is pick-up-only at Milton Keynes. All of your reasoning after the part I emboldened does nothing to address this problem.

 

[furlong]

The question that should be asked is: Is a London Euston to Milton Keynes ticket valid on a train which is pick-up-only at Milton Keynes (o.e.)? ATOC and Virgin say it isn't. I can't find any written evidence to the contrary, so it is hard to argue with.

Where do ATOC and Virgin say this?

How precisely are set-down only / pick-up only conditions incorporated into the contract and how enforceable are they?

 

[jkdd77]

19c, which allows tickets that would ordinarily be invalid to be used as part of a valid combination, has got nothing to do with this, though. It is an exception to the rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

19(a), 19(b) and 19(c) are all, to use All Line Rover's phrase, "exceptions to the rule" (that combinations of tickets are not valid for a single journey except as permitted by the contract), and each are of equal validity. Both 19(b) and 19(c) allow tickets that would ordinarily be invalid if used for only part of the journey to nonetheless be validly used as part of a valid combination.

Just as a London- Milton Keynes SDR and Milton Keynes- Coventry season would be valid to travel on a Coventry-bound train not stopping at Milton Keynes at all by virtue of 19(c), so a combination of 'ordinary' tickets split at Milton Keynes on a 'MKC pick up only' train is valid courtesy of 19(b) alone.

I interpret the sentence in Condition 19 about the entire journey needing to be covered as meaning:
1) that there must be no gaps in the tickets (e.g. London- Bletchley and Milton Keynes- Coventry tickets would obviously not qualify for any form of condition 19 split due to the gap in validity between Bletchley and Milton Keynes), and;
2) that any tickets held as part of a combination must be otherwise valid; for example, a London- Milton Keynes CDR would not be valid on a weekday train departing Euston between 1645 and 1900 inclusive, regardless of whether the train stopped at Milton Keynes.

I don't believe that statements regarding validity by ATOC or by the TOC concerned are necessarily definitive, (especially given the obvious financial incentive in claiming that the tickets are not valid in order to extract more money from the passenger).

The wording of the contract(s) entered into determines the trains the passenger is entitled to travel on, and the NRCoC is incorporated into, and forms part of, the contract between TOC and passenger.

Having said that, a passenger may clearly encounter significant practical difficulties in using valid tickets if rail staff mistakenly believe they are invalid.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is not the correct question, though....

The op asked about a split ticket where the tickets change over at a set down or pick up only stop. Or did I mis-read somewhere?

....The question that should be asked is: Is a London Euston to Milton Keynes ticket valid on a train which is pick-up-only at Milton Keynes (o.e.)?...

That is not what is being asked though.

HHF makes a perfectly valid, if irrelevant, point. His point does nothing to address the question of whether or not the tickets are valid....

The Ops question, as I read it, is.

Can you use a ticket to [Milton Keynes] and a ticket from [Milton Keynes] on the same train for a journey through [Milton Keynes], when the train stops at [Milton Keynes] only to pick up or set down?

I think I answered that question, but to put it another way for those in doubt....

If the train calls to set down and pick up, it calls.

If the train calls to set down only, it calls.

If the train calls to pick up only, it calls.

Therefore the train calls, therefore, as the NRCoC Condition 19b only requires that the train calls, the ticket combination is valid under 19b.

....Whilst I would like to agree with this, I can't. There is nothing to support such reasoning....

Apart from the NRCoC you mean?

 

[CyrusWuff]

My own take is that, for a combination to be valid under Condition 19(b), the individual tickets have to be valid for each leg.

So in this example, a London Terminals - Milton Keynes Central ticket would NOT be valid on a train that was pick up only at Milton Keynes Central.

Similarly, a Milton Keynes Central - London Terminals ticket would NOT be valid on a train that was set down only at Milton Keynes Central.

YMMV, IANAL, and other such acronyms...

Having said that, it's unlikely to be in ATOC's interest to allow a Court to rule definitively on the matter, so the best we can do is guess.

 

[yorkie]

I actually agree with HHF on this. How would a passenger know the train didn't pick up passengers anyway? And if you are not being "picked up" then what problem is a call that doesn't pick up, is another question one could ask.

I think this may be one of the situations where, if you know (or admit you know) too much, you can talk yourself into problems. It's sometimes better to simply think in simple terms.

Does the train call? The departure board says it does, so for most people that's it, end of story, I'm sure. But when you analyse it in detail and start consulting printed timetables and take note of set down only restrictions, it becomes a debate about the precise meaning of terminology such as "call". If you are analysing it in great detail, the simple defence of looking at the departure board no longer washes. Too much knowledge is not always a good thing...

Similar arguments apply with hidden GroupSave TOC restrictions, BOJ restrictions on Anytime tickets, weekend peak restrictions, and many more. A simple defence works well, but admitting knowledge of obscure restrictions, however unenforceable they may be, is going to do more harm than good.

 

[Wirral]

The advice has been useful, might be best avoided unless there are no other options.