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Split ticket validity during diversions

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pdq

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Hi

For my journey between Batley and Manchester I use a Metro zones 2-5 annual Metrocard and a Marsden - Manchester annual season. No problems whatsoever using this. I get a corporate discount on the Metrocard which brings the combined price down to less than the BTL-MAN season.

Just wondering if I will have any problems using this combination during the Stalybridge blockade at the end of October when my train will be diverted through the Calder valley.

Thanks in advance

Gary.
 
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Interesting question !

As you may be aware, as one of your tickets is a season ticket and the other is not - the train does not have to call at the station where the tickets change over.

However, for the 9 days of the Stalybridge blockade your train won't even be going through Marsden.

However, I would have thought you would be OK. It's not like you're having a "Jolly" and deciding to go elsewhere just for the hell of it. You're not at fault because the train HAS to be diverted.

I would be 99.99% certain you would be OK. If I were the guard you would get past me !
 

yorkie

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When trains are diverted, tickets that are valid by the diversionary route become valid (e.g. Rte: via Hebden Bridge becomes valid on TPE services, if they go via Hebden Bridge), however tickets that would have originally been valid, remain valid, as I understand it.

There is no way for a "regular" customer to know that their train is diverted simply by looking at a standard timetable. It is only by looking at sites such as Opentraintimes.org that they can determine the passing points of the service.
 

Deerfold

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When trains are diverted, tickets that are valid by the diversionary route become valid (e.g. Rte: via Hebden Bridge becomes valid on TPE services, if they go via Hebden Bridge), however tickets that would have originally been valid, remain valid, as I understand it.

Fair enough.

There is no way for a "regular" customer to know that their train is diverted simply by looking at a standard timetable. It is only by looking at sites such as Opentraintimes.org that they can determine the passing points of the service.

In this case the publicity is quite clear about what's happening with special timetables for the diversionary dates being published with maps of where the diverted trains are going. It may be possible for someone buying online to not realise what's going on but I don't think anyone doing the journey regularly could miss it!

See early publicity on p9 of http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres...8/0/PublicTransportChanges_v2_infoleaflet.pdf
 

All Line Rover

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Although the NRCoC entitles you, in certain circumstances, to use two or more tickets for one journey without the train having to stop at any intermediate station, the train must still pass through those station/s, as it must cover the entire journey. (I do not take "cover the entire journey" to mean that the combination of tickets must only cover the entire journey of a "normal" timetabled service - how would this work for journeys where two or more routes exist?). As far as I am aware, there is no automatic right for ticket combinations that are "normally" valid on a service to be valid when that service is taking a diversionary route, unless the diversion happens because of unforeseen disruption (e.g. line blocked south of Stafford because of a signal failure, so Virgin Trains to/from London that normally travel via the Trent Valley are diverted via the West Midlands).

Point-to-point "Any Permitted" tickets must remain valid even when a train takes a diversionary route that is not a permitted route. This is because "Any Permitted" tickets allow you to travel on any timetabled train on any permitted route. When a timetabled train is not available and is substituted by a train which takes a diversionary route that is not a permitted route, the "Any Permitted" ticket must continue to remain valid so as not to contravene fares regulation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
When trains are diverted, tickets that are valid by the diversionary route become valid (e.g. Rte: via Hebden Bridge becomes valid on TPE services, if they go via Hebden Bridge), however tickets that would have originally been valid, remain valid, as I understand it.

There is no way for a "regular" customer to know that their train is diverted simply by looking at a standard timetable. It is only by looking at sites such as Opentraintimes.org that they can determine the passing points of the service.

I disagree. If a customer wishes to use an unusual combination of tickets, it is their responsibility to check that such a combination is valid prior to travelling. Otherwise, that customer must buy the normal point-to-point fare, which will always be valid on a point-to-point service (as explained above).

To claim that "ticket combinations that are normally valid must continue to remain valid when a train is diverted as the customer may not have known that the diversion was in place" is illogical. If the customer is not aware of the route their train is taking, how are they aware that their specific ticket combination is valid?

People may disagree with me on this, but I am of the opinion that split-ticketing is an option and if you decide to use it you accept the associated risks, which includes the fact that your combination of tickets may not be valid on certain trains on certain days even when valid normally.
 
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34D

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Hi

For my journey between Batley and Manchester I use a Metro zones 2-5 annual Metrocard and a Marsden - Manchester annual season. No problems whatsoever using this. I get a corporate discount on the Metrocard which brings the combined price down to less than the BTL-MAN season.

Just wondering if I will have any problems using this combination during the Stalybridge blockade at the end of October when my train will be diverted through the Calder valley.

Thanks in advance

Gary.

The Marsden-Manchester ticket will be valid via the shortest route during the 9 day blockade, which will be via Deighton/Hebden Bridge I would think.

What is less clear to me is if the blockage was at Slaithwaite - ie TP running via Hebden Bridge, but still a Northern service Marsden-Manchester.
 

OwlMan

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The Marsden-Manchester ticket will be valid via the shortest route during the 9 day blockade, which will be via Deighton/Hebden Bridge I would think.

What is less clear to me is if the blockage was at Slaithwaite - ie TP running via Hebden Bridge, but still a Northern service Marsden-Manchester.

No it will be valid on the replacement bus services which are being provided. I suggest the OP gets in touch with either TPE or Northern for advice as special arrangements may have been made.

see http://tpexpress.co.uk/train-timetables/stalybridge-works.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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There will be a bus replacement service in place, if you wish to use the train on a diverted route you are best advised to contact the TOC concerned and get written permission to use the new route.
 

323235

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Although the NRCoC entitles you, in certain circumstances, to use two or more tickets for one journey without the train having to stop at any intermediate station, the train must still pass through those station/s, as it must cover the entire journey. (I do not take "cover the entire journey" to mean that the combination of tickets must only cover the entire journey of a "normal" timetabled service - how would this work for journeys where two or more routes exist?). As far as I am aware, there is no automatic right for ticket combinations that are "normally" valid on a service to be valid when that service is taking a diversionary route, unless the diversion happens because of unforeseen disruption (e.g. line blocked south of Stafford because of a signal failure, so Virgin Trains to/from London that normally travel via the Trent Valley are diverted via the West Midlands).

Point-to-point "Any Permitted" tickets must remain valid even when a train takes a diversionary route that is not a permitted route. This is because "Any Permitted" tickets allow you to travel on any timetabled train on any permitted route. When a timetabled train is not available and is substituted by a train which takes a diversionary route that is not a permitted route, the "Any Permitted" ticket must continue to remain valid so as not to contravene fares regulation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I disagree. If a customer wishes to use an unusual combination of tickets, it is their responsibility to check that such a combination is valid prior to travelling. Otherwise, that customer must buy the normal point-to-point fare, which will always be valid on a point-to-point service (as explained above).

That's not the impression I've ever got from any guard before, if the train diverts due to engineering works then anything that is normally valid is valid.

I don't think it would be good customer service to penalise passengers just because the train is going off route. Similarly I had a Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service divert due to signalling problems on Monday and the guard told us where we were diverting and what was happening. Would you therefore expect a passenger to get off the train and be marooned if they had a combination that was now no longer valid or have to buy brand new tickets because the train was now reversing and travelling via Westgate and the guard had provided all this information. Of course not so I don't think it should be any different in times of engineering work or one off planned diversions.
 

hairyhandedfool

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That's not the impression I've ever got from any guard before, if the train diverts due to engineering works then anything that is normally valid is valid.

I don't think it would be good customer service to penalise passengers just because the train is going off route. Similarly I had a Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service divert due to signalling problems on Monday and the guard told us where we were diverting and what was happening. Would you therefore expect a passenger to get off the train and be marooned if they had a combination that was now no longer valid or have to buy brand new tickets because the train was now reversing and travelling via Westgate and the guard had provided all this information. Of course not so I don't think it should be any different in times of engineering work or one off planned diversions.

Passengers who split tickets have to realise the limitations of the combination they hold when they buy the tickets, and this could be a very big one. People using tickets from A-B have more flexibility in the ticket, if the split point, as in this case, is right in the middle of a bus replacement service, passengers using a combination of tickets have to be prepared to use that service instead.

A TOC *may* decide to allow a diversionary route in these cases, but the contract is still as written and the TOCs would be well within their rights to refuse use of the longer route, be it with a split ticket or not.

Also, planned engineering work is a little different to short notice alterations like signalling problems and train failures. There is plenty of time to work out how much time is needed to make the journey where the is planned engineering work. TOCs often let longer routes go where a short notice alteration has occurred because gets people moving.
 

pdq

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I should say that I'm comfortable with the limitations my ticket choice gives me in this situation. I agree that the fact that the disruption js planned and publicised so far in advance makes this a different situation to unplanned diversions. I will email TPE and see what they say, once the official timetable is published. If I have to buy an additional weekly ticket to cover me from Manchester to Todmorden (or wherever the last WY station is) then that's fine. If they say I can use my current tickets, even better.
 

All Line Rover

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That's not the impression I've ever got from any guard before, if the train diverts due to engineering works then anything that is normally valid is valid.

I don't think it would be good customer service to penalise passengers just because the train is going off route. Similarly I had a Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds service divert due to signalling problems on Monday and the guard told us where we were diverting and what was happening. Would you therefore expect a passenger to get off the train and be marooned if they had a combination that was now no longer valid or have to buy brand new tickets because the train was now reversing and travelling via Westgate and the guard had provided all this information. Of course not so I don't think it should be any different in times of engineering work or one off planned diversions.

Whether TOCs should offer "good customer services" (i.e. above and beyond what they are obliged to offer) to customers who are paying less than the TOC wants them to pay is debatable (although I appreciate this doesn't really apply to the OP).

In the case of a last-minute alteration due to disruption, all tickets should of course remain valid, which I mentioned in my post. However, for planned engineering works the situation as different, as the customer has already been informed as to the validity of their proposed ticket combination before purchasing their tickets.

(Actually, in the case of season tickets longer than 3 months, my above comment is questionable as the customer will not have been told of the engineering works prior to purchasing their tickets! I've no idea what the legal position is of such a passenger).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I should say that I'm comfortable with the limitations my ticket choice gives me in this situation. I agree that the fact that the disruption js planned and publicised so far in advance makes this a different situation to unplanned diversions. I will email TPE and see what they say, once the official timetable is published. If I have to buy an additional weekly ticket to cover me from Manchester to Todmorden (or wherever the last WY station is) then that's fine. If they say I can use my current tickets, even better.

If I was in your position that is exactly what I would do. If you have written confirmation from TPE that they are happy for the ticket combination to remain valid during the engineering works (which in my opinion is perfectly reasonable considering the circumstances), it would be hard for a guard to refuse to let you travel!
 
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RJ

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For split tickets to be valid

- They must cover the entire journey

and one of either

a.) Both tickets must be zonal tickets
b.) The train must call at the station where tickets are changed
c.) One ticket is a season ticket (not issued on behalf of a PTE) or rover/flexi rover and the other(s) are not.

I'm sure the OP has the ability to judge whether or not their ticket combination meets both criteria for the diversionary route. There isn't much else to add, other than to try and get the TOC to permit travel without a valid ticket if the combination doesn't fulfill those criteria.

That said, I don't agree with other posters who advocate using split tickets, then kicking up a fuss when a situation arises when they will not be valid for the journey made.
 
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34D

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No it will be valid on the replacement bus services which are being provided. I suggest the OP gets in touch with either TPE or Northern for advice as special arrangements may have been made.

see http://tpexpress.co.uk/train-timetables/stalybridge-works.

I thought wed previously established on this forum that the availability of rail rep buses or a walking route didn't over-rule the shortest route wholly by rail?
 

RJ

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I thought wed previously established on this forum that the availability of rail rep buses or a walking route didn't over-rule the shortest route wholly by rail?

Sometimes it's beneficial to claim that a walking route forms part of the shortest route. I've done this in some of my more complex ticketing arrangements, though I only use the transfers that are shown in both the eNRT and NRE journey planner.

Sometimes it's beneficial to claim that the shortest route has to be done completely by rail. ATOC told me that for one ticket I was using, I was not allowed to walk and had to use the through rail route, despite this contravening guidance elsewhere in the NRG. Whilst this allowed them success in reducing the usefulness of that particular ticket, the precedent was set to allow the exploit of several, more otherwise contentious anomalies.
 
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kieron

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If I have to buy an additional weekly ticket to cover me from Manchester to Todmorden (or wherever the last WY station is) then that's fine. If they say I can use my current tickets, even better.
You wouldn't actually have to buy a weekly ticket, as you could always change your ticket over to a Manchester-Walsden one for the duration instead. This costs less than half as much per week as your normal ticket.
 

pdq

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I emailed TPE last week:
Will I be able to use my Metrocard and Marsden - Manchester season ticket on the diversionary route from Dewsbury to Manchester Victoria via Hebden Bridge whilst the Stalybridge line is closed? I know the combination isn't ordinarily valid for that route but I'm not sure what happens during closures such as this.

Had a response within one working day:
After receiving your email, I contacted two of our specialist team, who have both confirmed for me that your ticket (the combination of the Metrocard and the season ticket) will indeed be valid, only for the duration of the blockade.

Good service.
 

Max

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Just to confirm the position on this:

TPE Briefing said:
A Customer uses a "combination of Metrocard (including
zone 5) and a Marsden - Manchester Stns season ticket".

Will these tickets be valid on the diversionary route from Dewsbury to
Manchester Victoria via Hebden Bridge during the Stalybridge works?

That combination isn’t usually valid on that route but will it be different
for this closure?


The National Conditions of Carriage states:
19. Using a combination of tickets You may use two or more tickets for one journey as
long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The
Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in
combination with another ticket.
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season
Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local
authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/ are not.

As such, the tickets stated above would be valid, under (c) of the above, without
the train calling at Marsden but going on the route via Marsden.

However as these customers may be coming from Leeds etc, or from Huddersfield with
the fastest journey changing at Dewsbury to Manchester Victoria these tickets will be
valid for the nine days of the blockade on all services via the Hebden Bridge route.

Route “Hebden Bridge” tickets


If the train is routed via Hebden Bridge (regardless of whether it stops there or not), then
the ticket routed via Hebden Bridge would be considered the most appropriate ticket for
their journey and as such should be offered to customers where appropriate for their
journey.

Manchester Metrolink

Only tickets issued to/from Manchester CTLZ or Manchester MTLK are valid on the
Metrolink in the Manchester Central Zone.
Tickets for journeys where customers will need to travel cross Manchester WILL NOT be
valid on Manchester Metrolink.
Customers travelling on the North TransPennine route to / from Manchester Airport
should be advised to travel via Huddersfield and the rail replacement service to / from the airport.

Good news that they are making the above points crystal clear!
 
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