With the pictured journey with two separate tickets what are you rights if your first train (Thameslink) is delayed with regard to getting on the next LNER service without penalty. Or are you supposed to buy a new ticket for the LNER portion? Thanks
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Split ticket - delay rights
- Thread starter Seehof
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The minimum connection time for this connection to be valid is 31 minutes, so if you are lucky you will make the connection. If you’re delayed on the first train, since you didn’t allow enough time between the two trains, you might not be eligible for travel on a later train. However you seem to have an itinerary so if you show that you’re likely to be allowed to travel on a later train from King’s Cross without needing to buy a new ticket.
In the case of a valid interchange time, your rights are that you can use a later service with the same operator if your delay causes you to miss your train booked with an advance ticket, without paying more.
EDIT As stated in the following posts, if your interchange time is not “valid” but the tickets are bought in conjunction with an “invalid” itinerary, then you have the same right to use a later service in the case of delay to the first service, that’s to say without the need to buy a new ticket.
In the case of a valid interchange time, your rights are that you can use a later service with the same operator if your delay causes you to miss your train booked with an advance ticket, without paying more.
EDIT As stated in the following posts, if your interchange time is not “valid” but the tickets are bought in conjunction with an “invalid” itinerary, then you have the same right to use a later service in the case of delay to the first service, that’s to say without the need to buy a new ticket.
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Who was this purchased from and was this the itinerary offered when you searched from Horsham to York?
Looking at the email format, I think it's from TrainPal or Trainline? Either way, since it was offered as a single through itinerary, the connection is contractually valid and the OP would be entitled to travel on a later LNER train if they miss their connection due to disruption on Thameslink.
Some journey planners, including the one that's used by National Rail Enquiries, use a reduced interchange time of 21 minutes between St Pancras and Kings Cross, rather than the 31 minutes (15 minutes at each station + 1 minute walk) which the data would otherwise suggest.
It's a pragmatic solution given that the standard 15 minute interchange time is really more intended to give enough time to get to/from the Tube station at major London termini, which can involve multiple escalators and long walks - something not required in this case. I don't see how it's compliant with industry accreditation rules, but that's a matter between the RDG and the relevant journey planning provider(s).
alistairlees
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Some TIS suppliers / retailers use a reduced interchange time (of 21 minutes), not in the data, between Kings Cross and St Pancras. Trainline and Silverrail are two, there may be more.
Thank you. My stepdaughter bought this ticket who is not a seasoned traveller, so I just wanted to understand her rights if it goes wrong. Her mum says she should get an earlier train from Horsham for safety. I have no idea how or where she bought the ticket! Thanks to all again.
To answer the substantial question, if @Seehof is delayed by Thameslink to the point that they miss their booked train to York they can catch the next LNER train to York (I'm assuming this is a LNER & Connections ticket). There is no need to purchase a new ticket.
If the overall delay in arriving at York is 15 minutes or more then you can also claim Delay Repay from Thameslink.
If the overall delay in arriving at York is 15 minutes or more then you can also claim Delay Repay from Thameslink.
With Thameslink, in my experience cancellations are a bigger problem than delays. I'd suggest checking how the trains are running a couple of hours beforehand, and then make a decision on whether to catch the booked train or an earlier one.
MatthewE707
Member
On a split ticket, if your first train is more than 15 minutes late but you still make your connection, can you still claim delay repay on the first ticket, even though there was no overall delay to your journey?
Our ticketing site allows additional interchange time to be specified. This would minimise the chance of missing the connection (and maximise the chance of having their booked seats, chosen with our seat selector
)However, a confident traveller perhaps wouldn't do so, on the basis they would rather have Delay Repay compensation!
Delay repay applies to the journey being made.
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MatthewE707
Member
When I said split ticket, I meant if you bought two separate tickets for two legs of your journey - is it still the same?
Delay Repay is based on the time you arrive at your end destination.
I hope you mean "minimise the chance of missing your connection"!This would minimise the chance of getting the connection (and maximise the chance of having their booked seats, chosen with our seat selector
Mcr Warrior
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Would one be attempting to game the system here? For an example, travelling with a ticket on the xx30 LNER service from London Kings Cross to York would normally get you to York in around a tad over two hours. If your onward journey was the xx10 TPE service from York to Scarborough, for which you held a separate ticket, the original LNER service *could* have been 30 minutes late at York and you'd likely still make the connection. Are you asking if you could claim from LNER here for the delayed London Kings Cross to York part of your journey, even though that wasn't actually your overall end-to-end journey, and all that happened was less time waiting around on platform 4/5 at York?
MatthewE707
Member
That is essentially what I'm asking. I'm not trying to 'game the system', as you say, but I'm just asking whether that is possible? From what's been said I'm guessing not. Although, if you'd bought the tickets for, say, the 1030 King's Cross - York, and then the 1710 York - Scarborough, that would give you around 4.5 hours in York and surely they could reasonably be counted as separate journeys? Is there a point where they could be considered separate rather than a continuous journey?
Only you know whether you’re making one journey with a connection or two journeys, and you should claim Delay Repay appropriately.
The system is open to abuse, but the rail companies also “trawl” records of claims to try and spot abuse, so it’s worth bearing in mind.
Personally, if I made lots of Delay Repay claims I would also keep a personal log of the claims and their reasons. But of course there’s no requirement to do this.
In your last post, you’d be perfectly entitled to treat the legs as separate journeys and claim separately; in your first case you’d be abusing the system for a delay that doesn’t miss a booked connection.
But at the end you have to decide which is which. It’s not a perfect system. You don’t want to be a victim of some of the fishing exercises we see here unless you know you’re doing the right thing.
The system is open to abuse, but the rail companies also “trawl” records of claims to try and spot abuse, so it’s worth bearing in mind.
Personally, if I made lots of Delay Repay claims I would also keep a personal log of the claims and their reasons. But of course there’s no requirement to do this.
In your last post, you’d be perfectly entitled to treat the legs as separate journeys and claim separately; in your first case you’d be abusing the system for a delay that doesn’t miss a booked connection.
But at the end you have to decide which is which. It’s not a perfect system. You don’t want to be a victim of some of the fishing exercises we see here unless you know you’re doing the right thing.
I think most reasonable people would consider a journey being complete when you leave the railway’s premises for a substantial purpose other than simply travelling. If you stop in York for four hours to go for lunch, see the Minster and walk the walls, yes that’s two journeys.
redreni
Established Member
If changing from Thameslink to an intercity train at Kings Cross I always book with one of the retailers that uses the 21 minute connection time so that I have an itinerary to support my connection.
It's not a case of "if you're lucky you will make it" - the only way you wouldn't make it is if there were a substantial delay inbound to St Pancras. I've done that connection in 4 minutes without running. The 31 minute MCT is absurd.
It's not a case of "if you're lucky you will make it" - the only way you wouldn't make it is if there were a substantial delay inbound to St Pancras. I've done that connection in 4 minutes without running. The 31 minute MCT is absurd.
This was discussed in another thread here a couple of months ago.
Opinions differed really on whether you should claim for a single ticket on a split ticket journey on the basis you were delayed only on some intermediate ticket destination rather than the full journey time. I suspect if you did it often enough, the TOC or retailer might look into your purchase history and take issue with it. After all, it is a bit of 'having your cake and eating it', treating split tickets as one journey when it helps delay repay to a final destination and separate journeys when not actually delayed to the final destination. On the other hand, the conditions of travel state that a journey 'may' use a combination of tickets; not that a combination of tickets always forms a single journey. Whether one would like to argue that in civil court, is perhaps another matter. It would never get to a criminal court as proving that the passenger intentionally made a false representation would be nigh on impossible.
Edit: here's the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/split-ticketing-delay-repay-trick-or-fraud.283044/
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