Split ticket advice from booking office

[Winchcombe]

Hello,
This morning I wished to travel from a station (anon to avoid id of staff) to Oxford, a journey requiring a change at Reading to be possible.
My final arrival time was off peak, the train into Reading peak. So, I asked the clerk for the direct price and for the price of a ticket from X to Reading and then from Reading to Oxford and to confirm that the latter leg would be off peak.
I was given the two combinations of fares, the second being, as I suspected, a few pounds cheaper.
I was then advised that he couldn't sell the two tickets as this would be split ticketing which isn't allowed. I asked him to clarify and he said he could only sell the two tickets if I was breaking my journey at Reading which he explained to mean leaving the station and coming back later. In something of a hurry by now to catch the first train I said I would nip out for a coffee and so could I have the two tickets which he cheerfully agreed to and commented that the money I'd saved would pay for my coffee.

Any comments on what's right here? I'm not really bothered - I was confident I could split (never come across the idea of having to physically leave the railway though - I'd have thought, in a different scenario of a through train that crosses the peak/off peak boundary I could have two tickets anyway as long as the train is booked to call at the station where I change from a peak to an off peak ticket so not leaving the train never mind railway property) but anyone a little unsure of themselves would clearly have responded that they had no intention of leaving the station and bought the one ticket?

Any comments appreciated - hopefully to confirm that a split like this is ok - or to correct me and show I really do need to leave the railway in order to split?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It depends how you read the rules. If you ask for a ticket to Reading and a ticket onward he has to offer the cheapest available through fare to Reading and the cheapest available through fare from there to Oxford. If you say you are going to Oxford he only has to offer the cheapest available through fare, not the split.

Some managers have taken to telling staff not to sell split tickets though I don't think this has happened here, he probably hasn't been trained fully and that's not his fault. This chap is incorrect in stating that you have to leave the station at the split point though, there is no such requirement, probably best to nod and ignore than kick up a fuss in this case though, he was at least willing to sell them.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

I, along with many others, have used split tickets millions of times, it's allowed

 

[Dreadnought]

I've never had any issues when I've asked for split ticket combinations or been advised that I "need to leave the station" and I've done it numerous times at quite a few booking offices.

In fact I was once advised that "splitting" a journey was the cheapest option!

 

[LexyBoy]

I'd not have worried about disclosing the station- if it had been a matter of being offered a split without asking then I would not do so. Of course it's valid and there's no need to leave the station, and if a direct train then no need to leave the train either. Most ticket offices are more than happy with selling such tickets - my mother has found the "triple split" (sounds like a 70s dessert) I suggested to be not only cheaper but also quicker to book than the Advances she was using before (at Stroud)!

As hhf says, it's likely down to poor training, though I do have to wonder where these myths originate...

 

[ainsworth74]

It is, as others have said, perfectly permitted to split your ticket and not have to leave the station or even train. You may like to know what the National Rail Conditions of Carriage say on the matter:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets unless special conditions prohibit their use in this way. The Ticket Seller will, if you ask, advise you whether you can use a Zonal Ticket in combination with another ticket.

(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one ticket to another; or

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

If you do not comply with this Condition, you will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and Condition 2 or 4 will apply, either to the entire journey, or from the last station where the train stopped at which at least one of the tickets was valid.

For the purposes of this Condition, a “leisure travel pass” means any multi-journey ticket (excluding Season Tickets) valid for:

(i) at least 7 consecutive days; or

(ii) at least 3 days in a period of at least 7 consecutive days and includes rover tickets, travel passes, flexipass tickets and BritRail passes.

In your case clearly part (b) applied and it makes no mention of having to leave the station. If you have trouble in future you could mention that you've read Condition 19 of the NRCoC and it made no mention of having to break your journey in order to allow for split ticketing (if you wanted you could ask them if they comply with the NRCoC but I don't think I'd open with that personally).

 

[Cliveblackpool]

As a matter of interest, if the split was at a barriered station, but you stayed on the train/ platform, could the barriers at the destination show an error code, eg 54? (Possible dumbell)

 

[Winchcombe]

Thanks folks - I was almost certain I was fine (and pretty much resorted to the nod and smile approach) noted above - I've split tickets many times, normally with no comment, sometimes with a 'wow, never knew you could make it that much cheaper' comment from the clerk so I was just taken aback by the discussion about leaving the station and wanted to check I wasn't accidentally breaking some odd rule or clause. Glad that I'm not and that I got my cheaper ticket and everyone seemed to go away happy.

 

[Crossover]

As a matter of interest, if the split was at a barriered station, but you stayed on the train/ platform, could the barriers at the destination show an error code, eg 54? (Possible dumbell)

Doubtful - bear in mind you can leave a station without use of a ticket (or enter) if the barriers are open, for example

 

[Greenback]

The clerk has given you wrong information. This may be because they haven't been trained properly or they may have simply misunderstood something, but the fact is that there is absolutely no requirment to elave a station inorder to use split tickets.

And even if there was, I don't see how it could be enforced!

 

[bb21]

Complete and utter rubbish. If a ticket office clerk is prevented from selling splits under the instruction from higher management then that needs to be challenged. As others have mentioned, it may well be that the clerk was poorly trained.

In this instance, I would write to the company, pointing out that their staff may have been inadequately trained, request confirmation that they would take steps to ensure that their staff are correctly briefed about impartial retailing principles and a date by which this training should be complete.

This is simply unacceptable. If this is not resolved then I would take it up with Passenger Focus if I were you.

 

[Greenback]

bb21 has made an excellent suggestion. It is quite right that such advice needs to be challenged, not with the person giving it, as they have probably made a genuine mistake, but with their employers who may be deliberately issuing duff instructions or not providing adequate training.

 

[yorkie]

It is true that you can use two or more tickets for ONE JOURNEY if you wish, this right (and the responsibilities that come with it) is detailed in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 19).

However ticket clerks are not generally supposed to offer a combination, unless the passenger expresses a wish for an itinerary that requires two or more tickets.

So a conversation could go along the lines of a ticket clerk attempting to assist the customer into wording the request in a way that the clerk could offer the combination of tickets. That perhaps didn't happen here, but it could, so worth bearing in mind.

A conversation could potentially go like this:

"Can I buy a York to Derby for the next train, leaving 0826, returning any time today?"
"That will be £86 sir."
"That sounds expensive! I went to Sheffield recently and I recall it cost a fraction of the price!"
"Well, you don't happen to be stopping off in Sheffield en-route? If so you may be interested in asking me for a Sheffield ticket and a ticket for an additional journey to Derby....? "
"Oh, that sounds interesting! how much is a ticket to Sheffield and from Sheffield to Derby?"
"Well, York to Sheffield is only £19 sir, and if you were to continue your journey from there to Derby that would only be an extra £10.30"
"Wow, I'll take that then please! Do I have to get off at Sheffield?"
"Well, no you don't have to alight sir, as you've now asked me for the price of two separate tickets and asked me to sell them, I will issue them as separate tickets but in fact you can remain on the train."

​

If I was a ticket clerk and knew that if someone simply asked for a return to Derby I was obliged, under the rules of impartial retailing, to ask them for £56 more than the appropriate combination of fares, I'd feel pretty bad about simply charging that but equally would not want to get into trouble for offering a combination of tickets when a combination was not requested and a through ticket was available.

 

[bb21]

However ticket clerks are not generally supposed to offer a combination, unless the passenger expresses a wish for an itinerary that requires two or more tickets.

Not at ticket offices, however I have certainly heard guards offering split tickets to uninformed passengers by telling them how they should have asked for their tickets accompanied by a wink.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I, along with many others, have used split tickets millions of times, it's allowed

We should never confuse our personal experience, however frequent, with an interpretation of Regulations, especially when giving advice to others.

Hyperbole doesn't make it any more accurate!

As it happens, ainsworth74, Greenback, hairyhandedfool, bb21 and yorkie are correct, based on their analysis, which may or may not correspond to personal experience.

 

[revenueadvice]

I think the thing is if its a busy ticket office and the clerk starts explaining split tickets then its going to cause the queue to be longer and people are going to start getting fed up with waiting this might be one reason why management don't want clerks too offer split tickets, the other reason is of course money.

I have heard stories of train managers making people get off a train and wait for the next one because they have a split ticket even though the train was calling at the connecting station. I don't see a point in causing an argument and asking someone to leave a train when they have paid for their whole journey.

 

[maniacmartin]

I have heard stories of train managers making people get off a train and wait for the next one because they have a split ticket even though the train was calling at the connecting station. I don't see a point in causing an argument and asking someone to leave a train when they have paid for their whole journey.

And Section 19 of the NRCoC explicitly allows split ticketing, so the passenger is within their rights to stay on the train if it calls at the station where the tickets are split.

 

[Greenback]

Indeed. If the passenger has made enquiries, found out that two tickets are cheaper than one, and then ask for those tickets, they should be sold them. From my reading of the OP, this is what has happened here.

This is quite different to expecting clerks to know, or to offer, the best combination of tickets without such a request. There is no obligation to do this, and TOC's my take a dim view of it if it does occur.

 

[Wath Yard]

I think the thing is if its a busy ticket office and the clerk starts explaining split tickets then its going to cause the queue to be longer and people are going to start getting fed up with waiting this might be one reason why management don't want clerks too offer split tickets, the other reason is of course money.

Irrelevant. They're supposed to sell them, therefore they should sell them. The railway is a tightly regulated industry and TOCs or individual managers can't just make rules up.

 

[yorkie]

Irrelevant. They're supposed to sell them, therefore they should sell them. The railway is a tightly regulated industry and TOCs or individual managers can't just make rules up.

But the previous poster was saying why the expectation of management would be that clerks should not offer combinations of tickets when one ticket was appropriate. They are, of course, obliged to sell tickets that have been requested by customers.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Small correction Yorkie, they are obliged to offer the cheapest available through fare for the journey being made unless a passenger requests a specific fare (or fares). Ticket office clerks are not 'obliged to sell' anything (there are times when staff should not sell tickets, even when asked specifically for them).