Split advance tickets

[Halsebee]

Just tried to book a journey from Cheltenham to Derby, splitting at Tamworth (train stops there) using advance purchase tickets for both legs consecutively, only to be told in very clear terms at the FGW station ticket office (not Cheltenham, but another station), that ticket offices are not allowed to sell advance purchase tickets for both successive legs of a single journey on one train. Its OK, if you are changing trains, or if you buy split flexible tickets (any type) for the same train, but FGW and XC have issued edicts that ticket offices are not allowed to sell advance purchase tickets in the manner described. The chap at the ticket office suggested buying online to overcome this, which is fair enough. He also implied I may have trouble with XC train managers if I use split advances as described, and they might change a penalty fare (or whatever punishment they can dole out in the circumstance).
Is any of this correct? I thought any split ticket combination was OK. Also have edicts been issued and are they allowed to do so.

 

[Chapeltom]

What you have been told sounds like absolute garbage. You can hold advances for different legs on the same train as you can with Off Peak/Anytime tickets.

 

[tannedfrog]

They probably just don't want to sit there and test out umpteen different splits to see which is cheapest!

 

[BrownE]

told in very clear terms at the FGW station ticket office (not Cheltenham, but another station), that ticket offices are not allowed to sell advance purchase tickets for both successive legs of a single journey on one train.

I have sent you a PM about this, I am currently in discussion with FGW about their various TSA failures (essentially the requirements to sell 'basic' tickets and 'rail products' impartially and properly). As such this is most interesting.

However, it's utter codswallop, if we look at the contractual obligation to sell the ticket we see:

• It's a 'permanent fare'
• It's a 'basic product'
• It's available in the NFM information for that station
• It's available for sale

Would you look at that, they are obliged to sell...

 

[Halsebee]

No, I told him exactly what I wanted, the exact train etc, but he said ticket offices had been instructed not to sell succesive advances.
He was very nice, helpful and pleasant, and even suggested online purchase as a way round this issue.

 

[455driver]

Just buy one set of tickets, pay for them etc and then buy the other set of tickets, split tickets are perfectly valid and I cant see how a ticket office/company can refuse to sell them.

Okay somebody asking the clerk to check which splits are cheapest is a no no but refusing to sell somebody the exact ticket they ask for sounds a really stupid thing to try and impose.

 

[Goatboy]

XC do not operate PF's anyway so he's wrong on that, too.

 

[yorkie]

Please let us know how FGW respond. If they don't give a good initial response, then perhaps a person with umpteen letters after his name could be e-mailed directly.

The ticket clerk was in breach of the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement, adherence of which is a franchise commitment, so it should be taken as a serious matter and I'd like some assurances FGW will take it seriously. If they do not give such assurances, please contact Passenger Focus and perhaps the DfT could get involved.

I am happy to proof read any letters, if you like.

 

[Halsebee]

XC do not operate PF's anyway so he's wrong on that, too.

To be fair, I'm not sure he said "penalty fares", but he implied the Train Managers might not accept consecutive splits and I'd have to pay more in some sort of fine/surcharge/penalty.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Only problem with buying the tickets separately, is that you cannot, as far as I know, reserve the same seat for the whole journey. I also don't know how to do that online, if you can. Does anyone know please?

 

[yorkie]

I also don't know how to do that online, if you can. Does anyone know please?

If the journey is with XC, it can be done, by using the XC website.

(The only other TOC I'm aware of, for which this applies, is East Coast).

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The person may be getting confused with the instructions issued which say ticket selling staff are not to offer split tickets unless the passenger specifically requests them?

 

[Halsebee]

No, he was explicit, if the passenger wants to buy flexible tickets, they will sell anything the passenger requests, but specifically they have been instructed by FGW NOT TO SELL advances split on the same train. He even said, if it was for two trains, for example if I changed at Birmingham onto a different train, that is OK!


p

The person may be getting confused with the instructions issued which say ticket selling staff are not to offer split tickets unless the passenger specifically requests them?

 

[BrownE]

specifically they have been instructed by FGW NOT TO SELL advances split on the same train.

That's an amazing breach of contract by FGW.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ticket offices are obliged to offer the cheapest available through ticket valid for the journey being made.

The OP does not want a through ticket and made this clear, so any obligations on that score do not have to be met.

However, I do think the clerk is doing himself out of a job here, perhaps he just doesn't want to do it, or maybe he is following management guidelines and hasn't figured out how to get around them for the benefit of the customer (two transactions for example).

 

[yorkie]

The ticket office is still obliged to sell each of the specifically requested products.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Ticket offices are not obliged to sell anything.

 

[island]

The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement might contradict you there.

 

[yorkie]

Ticket offices are not obliged to sell anything.

I am a bit concerned by that, you may wish to check that with your employer...

B.4 Product Range Obligations
B.4.1 Products Retailers Must Sell
•ALL fares for journeys with a DIRECT service from that station
•Young Persons and Senior Railcards
•Permanent Fares that are BASIC contained in NFM information held at that station
•Temporary Fares if:
–They are BASIC products
–The creator of the fare wishes it to be sold at that station
–The creator of the fare has supplied the relevant supporting material and issuing
instructions
•Reservations or Upgrades that relate to the flows mentioned above.
•Other Discount Cards (e.g. Railcards) if:
–They are BASIC products
–The creator of the fare wishes it to be sold at that station
–The creator of the fare has supplied the relevant supporting material and issuing
instructions

These obligations apply only if the relevant fares can be issued on the Ticket Issuing Machine in use at that station.

 

[TonyR]

I would go back and remind him of NRCOC Section 19:

19. Using a combination of tickets You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the following applies:

(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

 

[OwlMan]

I understand, from an industry contact, that the TOC in case might be relying on the fact that the customer has not allowed the minimum connection time between trains.



[/QUOTE]from Retail standards guide

When a customer requests a specific combination of fares for a journey for which a through fare is also available, the Retailer, at an impartial point of sale, should sell this combination (provided the Retailer would normally be allowed to sell those fares separately) and between them, they are valid for the whole journey requested. The Retailer must make a reasonable
attempt to ensure that the combined fares meet the customer’s equirements (TSA clause 6-31). The Retailer must specifically refer the customer to the limitations on the use of combinations of tickets shown in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (clause 19).
[/QUOTE]
The Retail Standards Guide states that a combination must only be sold if valid. If the minimum connection time is not allowed the tickets are technically not valid as a combination (nowhere does it say that the minimum connection time does not have to adhered to if the tickets are valid for the same train.)

FYI I do not agree with the above as there is obviously no need to allow connection time when the tickets are both on the same train.

 

[maniacmartin]

Is a 'connection' defined?

I always thought that a connection meant changing trains, not necessarily changing tickets, so if the tickets join on the same train then there would be no connection, and thus no requirement to adhere to the minimum connection time

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I am a bit concerned by that, you may wish to check that with your employer...

Last time I saw you quote a small passage of the TSA another forum member quoted another section you had conveniently left out, which contradicted what you had put. This time you have quoted a small passage and I have to wonder if there is another part you have not quoted?

A passenger approaches who is clearly unfit to travel and requests a ticket, must I sell them a ticket?

A passenger requests a ticket for which there is no service, must I sell the ticket?

A passenger has abused a member of staff and then requests a ticket, must I sell that ticket?

A passenger requests a ticket which is clearly not valid for the journey they want to make, must I sell the ticket?

 

[CC 72100]

...only to be told in very clear terms at the FGW station ticket office (not Cheltenham, but another station), that ticket offices are not allowed to sell advance purchase tickets for both successive legs of a single journey on one train....

Very surprised to hear this - I know they are not allowed to offer splits, but if asked for explicitly by the passenger then I believe they are obliged to sell the ticket.

About 6 weeks ago I helped a friend buy return travel to Birmingham using Advance then and Off peak day single, then an advance. Have done other splits before at this ticket office. Can't get reservation for same seat, so normally have to hope there's one free for the whole journey or be prepared to move. Oh, and XC and FGW train managers have never batted an eyelid before, in some cases being grateful when I show them all tickets at the start so they're not thinking 'why's he still sat there?' later in the journey.

Did all this at an FGW ticket office at a reasonably major station. (Can PM details if you want).

 

[Deerfold]

Last time I saw you quote a small passage of the TSA another forum member quoted another section you had conveniently left out, which contradicted what you had put. This time you have quoted a small passage and I have to wonder if there is another part you have not quoted?

A passenger approaches who is clearly unfit to travel and requests a ticket, must I sell them a ticket?

A passenger requests a ticket for which there is no service, must I sell the ticket?

A passenger has abused a member of staff and then requests a ticket, must I sell that ticket?

A passenger requests a ticket which is clearly not valid for the journey they want to make, must I sell the ticket?

Are any of these the case here?

Even if not obligated to sell these tickets it seems quite odd not to when it's quite easy to buy them by other methods (though I seem to remember there being a similar thread about buying a railcard dicounted ticket when the holder was not present).

 

[SussexMan]

A passenger requests a ticket for which there is no service, must I sell the ticket?

I'm intrigued by this one. Are tickets for sale for services which don't exist?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are any of these the case here?....

Yorkie quoted the Retail Standards Guide (a guide aimed at simplifying the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement (TSA) for those who don't understand it) as a means of saying the ticket offices are required to sell any ticket asked for, the questions are relevant to that.

....Even if not obligated to sell these tickets it seems quite odd not to when it's quite easy to buy them by other methods (though I seem to remember there being a similar thread about buying a railcard dicounted ticket when the holder was not present).

I can't think of a reason not to sell them in this case, but then I wasn't the clerk at the office.

 

[Goatboy]

I'm intrigued by this one. Are tickets for sale for services which don't exist?

Of course there are - Cheap Day Single for a journey after the last train has departed perhaps?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm intrigued by this one. Are tickets for sale for services which don't exist?

Aside from tickets dated 25th (and 26th in some cases) December? Well, I believe there was a discussion on 'London' where Yorkie picked out a ticket routed 'Not Via London' for which there was no direct services and the shortest route, and all mapped routes, were via London, 'though I can't remember what the exact example was.

 

[1e10]

Stupid question here, what is an advance split ticket?

 

[Goatboy]

Stupid question here, what is an advance split ticket?

An Advance ticket from say Birmingham to Cheltenham and another from Cheltenham to Bristol, on the same train, instead of an Advance ticket from Birmingham to Bristol.