Split Advance Tickets

[glynn80]

It's not really a question of how common or how uncommon the problem is. If it has been decided that split advanced tickets should be honoured, there shouldn't even be any question as to why TOC's wouldn't want to make public statements confirming that status quo.

Well that is the question, have ATOC officially decided their policy regarding this, I'm not sure they have.

The letter they sent to yorkie left them enough room for maneuver, to claim that what they have stated within is not official policy, it is certainly not "water tight" so to speak.

 

[yorksrob]

In that case, it's all the more reason for them to decide and publicise their policy, and to decide in the correct way i.e to allow passengers to continue their journeys in such circumstances. To decide otherwise would surely bring the industry into disrepute.

 

[blacknight]

...not as such, but I rarely buy tickets at offices, but when I have it's been implied.

...no but I was on a journey last month from manchester. and there was gentle men on opposite table seat, and only had one part of his 2 part return as he had lost the other while taking stuff out of his pocket while in man.d the tpx guard was a moody so and so, and wasn't exactly friendly (come on its bad enough your forcing him to buy another ticket, even if do think you're doing your job, but a little kindness goes a long way), and told him he had to buy another ticket as its not valid without the other part, even though he had already used that portion as it were on the way there. the guy was none to happy about this, and after bit of discussion eventually paid up... I dumno if this was lawful or not, but does sound rather strange.

but thats probs best left for another tread... just find the ticket inspectors on tpx to be particularly drauconian...

Guard doing his or her job correctly the passenger don't get the ask they would like to hear so you are a "moody so & so" 2 part advance ticket clearly state only valid with travel ticket whats to say someone else is travelling in another coach with other part of that ticket, then 2 travel for price of one.
Could just be passenger was trying to get home on earlier service than booked on so "lost" part of ticket happens from time to time, maybe he travelled on a local service which as no reservations.
If passenger knew where he lost it why not go to booking office who could have recovered booking & confirmed his booked service for him.
As for splitting of any tickets always time a safe separation in arrival & deparuture at change over station for instance Train A arrives on time but Train B departs from platform on opposite side of station you have a large case & are stuck in queue for the lift. There's no railway delay as both have trains run to time & its your responsibility to present yourself on platform in good time to board next service, bearing in mind at some mainline stations gates are closed 2 minutes before booked departure time.
One for the legal eagles to fight over might be viewed as one journey but you could find you have entered into 2 separate contacts with different TOC's by making choice to buy a split ticket option.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

......no but I was on a journey last month from manchester. and there was gentle men on opposite table seat, and only had one part of his 2 part return as he had lost the other while taking stuff out of his pocket while in man. the tpx guard ... told him he had to buy another ticket as its not valid without the other part, even though he had already used that portion as it were on the way there...

:???: I don't follow. Was this gentleman trying to use an advance purchase ticket without an accompanying compulsory reservation? Or was he attempting to travel with the already stamped outward portion of a return ticket having "lost" the unstamped return portion?

 

[clagmonster]

Blacknight, in the case monkey describes the passenger had a "2 part return", and advance tickets are only sold as singles so it must have been a walk up fare, not an advance ticket. In my opinion, whether or not the guard was right depends on whether the passenger presented the outward or return portion of his 2 part return. If he presented the outward portion, then the guard was correct, as the NRCoC states the following:
"17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward
journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use
the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part."
The would be no way to tell whether the return part was unused if only the outward portion was present. However, I see nothing wrong with having only the return portion of a ticket.
The rest of your advice, Blacknight I agree with.

 

[yorkie]

The minimum interchange times need to be followed irrespective of which platforms the trains are on. As for the thing about if you are stuck in a lift changing platforms and that being the customers responsbility, well that's just absurd! If you tried that on, you'd soon find yourself in the 'papers for the wrong reasons. Even Basil Fawlty wouldn't do that!

As for 2 seperate contracts - this has been discussed before. What does the number of contracts have to do with it? It's irrelevant.

 

[blacknight]

Blacknight, in the case monkey describes the passenger had a "2 part return", and advance tickets are only sold as singles so it must have been a walk up fare, not an advance ticket. In my opinion, whether or not the guard was right depends on whether the passenger presented the outward or return portion of his 2 part return. If he presented the outward portion, then the guard was correct, as the NRCoC states the following:
"17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward
journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use
the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part."
The would be no way to tell whether the return part was unused if only the outward portion was present. However, I see nothing wrong with having only the return portion of a ticket.
The rest of your advice, Blacknight I agree with.

True advance tickets are sold as singles only but they are in 2 part form when issued on creditcard size tickets 1 being travel ticket other as details of service booked on. One part is not valid for travel without other & guard requests passenger buy new ticket for that reason would suggest passenger was travelling on an advance ticket.

 

[yorkie]

'2 part return' is different to 'issued as 02 coupons' I suspect the wrong text was quoted hence the confusion?

 

[monkey]

:???: I don't follow. Was this gentleman trying to use an advance purchase ticket without an accompanying compulsory reservation? Or was he attempting to travel with the already stamped outward portion of a return ticket having "lost" the unstamped return portion?

...nah it wasn't advanced. it was like walk up return (saver), with no reservation with. you know the type that has 2-part return written on the bottom it. as I understood it he had used the outward leg, and lost that when he got to man, then had his remaining return portion, but because he didnt have his outward used portion - he got charged for a new single....

Guard doing his or her job correctly the passenger don't get the ask they would like to hear so you are a "moody so & so" 2 part advance ticket...

...it wasn't an advance ticket like I said, hence why I said its probs best for another thread - cos it's not relevant. I dunno, if the guard was correct or not to charge him for - but I just think it was a misunderstanding, and a little kindness goes a long way. it was bad enough he was being charged again, no need to be so off with him - if he was clearly trying to pull a fast one I could understand the guard being frustrated, but even then he shoudl be professional, and ask politely and not be so abrupt...

I'm sorry but I really take exception to guards who are like this, especially on a train such as tpx. I've been on local northern trains, with more difficult passengers, who sometimes drunk, and they've been more professional and in control and a lot friendlier than that miserable git on tpx...

 

[yorkie]

If true, he should have refused to pay. I hope you got the name of the conductor and asked TPE to re-train him/her?

 

[tony_mac]

that doesn't sound at all right, though.
You have no obligation to keep the outward part once it's used, the machines usually keep it anyway.

 

[glynn80]

that doesn't sound at all right, though.
You have no obligation to keep the outward part once it's used, the machines usually keep it anyway.

The guard in question sounds confused. He was probably thinking of the rule regarding Anytime Return tickets, where the passenger must be in possession of an unused return portion for the outward portion to be valid.

 

[monkey]

If true, he should have refused to pay. I hope you got the name of the conductor and asked TPE to re-train him/her?

...unfortunately I didn't. I was in manchester to see a gig with my brother and a couple of freinds previous night, and had a LOT to drink lol (ended up throwing up my brothers friends living room door lol) so was feeling pretty rough lol - but yeah that guard was just off. I presented my ticket, he snatched it off of me, and then gave it back (seemingly annoyed it seemed he couldn't find anything wrong with it)...

 

[yorkie]

I've never met a TPE conductor act anything like that before, most seem friendly. Which route was this?

 

[tony_mac]

The guard in question sounds confused. He was probably thinking of the rule regarding Anytime Return tickets, where the passenger must be in possession of an unused return portion for the outward portion to be valid.

I wasn't necessarily thinking that it was the guard that was confused!
I would have thought that if the guard was going round asking for outward portions, and trying to charge for new tickets, it wouldn't be very long before somebody put him straight - probably in quite forceful terms!

 

[monkey]

I've never met a TPE conductor act anything like that before, most seem friendly. Which route was this?

...it was manchester piccadilly to hull I think, cos it was a 170 turbostar which only operate on that (I think). I was only on between man picc and leeds though...

 

[clagmonster]

The guard in question sounds confused. He was probably thinking of the rule regarding Anytime Return tickets, where the passenger must be in possession of an unused return portion for the outward portion to be valid.

Said rule applies to all return tickets, see my quote from the NRCoC above. It is more likely to be applied to open returns because there is a much higher chance of fraud.
As for asking to see the outward portion when the return portion is presented, I don't see the sense in that. Nothing in the NRCoC states that this is neccesary, and I don't see any way in which it would allow fraud to be detected. In any case, as Tony says barriers, both automatic and manned can and do retain outward portions at the destination.

 

[glynn80]

Said rule applies to all return tickets, see my quote from the NRCoC above. It is more likely to be applied to open returns because there is a much higher chance of fraud.

The reason I only stated Anytime Returns and not returns in general was that in the FRPP, it is this ticket type alone that carries the phrase "The outward portion of an Anytime Return ticket is valid only in conjunction with the unused return portion". This phrase is absent from the other return ticket types.

 

[monkey]

...just a note: the leeds ticket barriers never retain tickets, and also man picc doesn't have any...

 

[blacknight]

The minimum interchange times need to be followed irrespective of which platforms the trains are on. As for the thing about if you are stuck in a lift changing platforms and that being the customers responsbility, well that's just absurd! If you tried that on, you'd soon find yourself in the 'papers for the wrong reasons. Even Basil Fawlty wouldn't do that!

As for 2 seperate contracts - this has been discussed before. What does the number of contracts have to do with it? It's irrelevant.

I didn't say you were stuck in lift which I accept would be a railway delay but rather you chose to join queue at lifts & as a result you missed the onward service.
What annoys me is the amount of fit & able that chose to hog lifts rather than use a perfectly servicable. In my view anyone under the age of 55 who don't have either a medical condition or disability(in this case children count as a disability)should ask the question do I really need to use lift taking up a space & risk possibility elderly or infirm missing a connection waiting for lift.
In these days of equal oppotunities if you cannot carry your luggage its natures way of saying you packed to much.
As for 2 separate contracts have to agree to disagree one that one until there's a legal ruling. Example I see is some one as ticket to change over station only then buys a local ticket from TVM thats a split ticket journey but would it justify cost of taxi at TOC's expense if last local service as gone. Thought please

 

[yorkie]

Someone told me that they allowed about 2 minutes less than the minimum interchange time from Kings Cross to Paddington, their NXEC service was late, they got the 2nd ticket accepted by FGW (at the ticket office as they had time before the next available service). I suspect the person who endorsed it thought it looked like enough time (it almost was!) and didn't check exactly. So he was lucky.

UPDATE:

This person applied for compensation from NXEC and got vouchers to the value of the FULL amount of BOTH tickets (only £15.35 as they were cheap tickets)

This is very interesting given that NXEC are normally not one of the best TOCs when it comes to recognising the validity of split ticketing!