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Speeding...

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The Snap

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Hi all,

Perhaps a touchy subject this one, and I'm not trying to cause any kind of 'drop the driver in it' type thread ;).

A simple question that has puzzled me for a while: what are the rules when it comes to train drivers 'speeding' (ie: exceeding permitted linespeed)? What systems are in place to prevent speeding?

In a car, a driver can speed if they wish and risk getting caught (fine and 3 points etc). I've often used the various rail simulators and, seen as though they are simulators, it does no harm to 'speed' and break the designated linespeed. Obviously in the real thing it's very different, so what's the crack?

Cheers :),
 
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met331

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Black boxes that can be randomly downloaded. If you are caught say doing 5mph faster than linespeed then a driver manager would have a word. 10 mph over and you can expect a form 1 in the post with a please explain.
At junctions and certain sections TPWS will monitor your speed. so say a junction is 50 mph then the tpws for that junction will be set at around 50 and if you hit it quicker than that it will apply a full emergency stop. That is then recorded on the black box and you have to report it to the signaller before moving otherwise if your caught resetting and going without permission it will be the sack.
 

The Snap

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Black boxes that can be randomly downloaded. If you are caught say doing 5mph faster than linespeed then a driver manager would have a word. 10 mph over and you can expect a form 1 in the post with a please explain.
At junctions and certain sections TPWS will monitor your speed. so say a junction is 50 mph then the tpws for that junction will be set at around 50 and if you hit it quicker than that it will apply a full emergency stop. That is then recorded on the black box and you have to report it to the signaller before moving otherwise if your caught resetting and going without permission it will be the sack.


I see, cheers for that. I kind of assumed it would be the black box. Are they checked regularly then?

With regards to the TPWS - do emergency brake applications occur frequently as a result of passing over them too quickly, or are they a rarity?
Out of interest, has anyone on the forum ever been on a service where one has occurred? I bet that was interesting...imaging the announcement the Conductor would need to make to explain that one! :lol:
 

TDK

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Black boxes that can be randomly downloaded. If you are caught say doing 5mph faster than linespeed then a driver manager would have a word. 10 mph over and you can expect a form 1 in the post with a please explain.
At junctions and certain sections TPWS will monitor your speed. so say a junction is 50 mph then the tpws for that junction will be set at around 50 and if you hit it quicker than that it will apply a full emergency stop. That is then recorded on the black box and you have to report it to the signaller before moving otherwise if your caught resetting and going without permission it will be the sack.


Your info isn't quite correct. OTDR (On Train Data Recorders) do monitor the speed and many other parameters of the train. TPWS is used at Danger signals usually set at 47mph 300m from the signal, at permanent speed restrictions these are all dependant on the speed reduction they will not be st at 50mph at a 50mph reduction but will be positioned a distance from the commencement and set usually well above the PSR and at buffer stops usually set at 10mph, in the buffer stop instance a driver can continue to the stops without contacting the signaller as long as the line is clear but then must contact the signaller once coming to a stand. You will not necessarily get the sack if you reset and go but will be disciplined, 3mph tolerance is allowed in all cases over the speed, if you are doing over 7mph this will cetainly be reported and you will be questioned by a manager, if you 11mph over the you are taken off track and tested for drugs and alcohol. Once again if you are 10mph over does not necessarily mean a form 1. It peeves me sometimes with this second guessing on the protocol of train driving, please get your facts correct instead of guessing or misinforming folks, the reason I say this is I have seen posts on here with enthusiasts with GPS and we can't be having said folks reporting speeding when in fact it isn't.
 

anonymous0101

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I'm always trying to speed on my bicycle. Once i managed to get in the slipstream behind a bus and got up to 40mph! Is there a speed limit for bicycles?
 

TDK

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I'm always trying to speed on my bicycle. Once i managed to get in the slipstream behind a bus and got up to 40mph! Is there a speed limit for bicycles?

This is a railway forum
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I see, cheers for that. I kind of assumed it would be the black box. Are they checked regularly then?

With regards to the TPWS - do emergency brake applications occur frequently as a result of passing over them too quickly, or are they a rarity?
Out of interest, has anyone on the forum ever been on a service where one has occurred? I bet that was interesting...imaging the announcement the Conductor would need to make to explain that one! :lol:

Emergency brake applications due to TPWS are rare, and you as a passenger would not know if an emergency brake application was due to TPWS as there are many things that can cause an emergency brake application, the guard would not normally announce a TPWS brake demand as he/she would probably not know it was a TPWS incident. I have had a TPWS brake demand on a few occasions and all of them were malfunctioing equipment.

The OTDR is always checked after any incident and a driver will usually be downloaded twice a year for their competence unless on a specially monitored action plan.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hi all,

Perhaps a touchy subject this one, and I'm not trying to cause any kind of 'drop the driver in it' type thread ;).

A simple question that has puzzled me for a while: what are the rules when it comes to train drivers 'speeding' (ie: exceeding permitted linespeed)? What systems are in place to prevent speeding?

In a car, a driver can speed if they wish and risk getting caught (fine and 3 points etc). I've often used the various rail simulators and, seen as though they are simulators, it does no harm to 'speed' and break the designated linespeed. Obviously in the real thing it's very different, so what's the crack?

Cheers :),

you cannot compare a simulator to driving a train
 
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jopsuk

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I'm always trying to speed on my bicycle. Once i managed to get in the slipstream behind a bus and got up to 40mph! Is there a speed limit for bicycles?

(off topic, after all this is as said a railway forum, but...)
yes. The speed limit for bicycles is the same as for cars and motorbikes.
 

The Snap

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Thanks for the info guys, apprecaited :).

you cannot compare a simulator to driving a train

A similator is exactly what is says - it simulates the real thing. Hence, you can compare the two. But I know what you mean, there must be vast differences between a sim and the real thing...
 

Railsigns

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TPWS is used at Danger signals usually set at 47mph 300m from the signal,
There's no 'usually' about it; every TPWS fitment is individually calculated depending on gradient and line speed. If the OSS (overspeed sensor system) did happen to be placed at 300 metres from the signal, its set speed would be 43.5 mph, not 47 mph.

at buffer stops usually set at 10mph
12.5 mph is the correct set speed for a buffer stop OSS.

please get your facts correct instead of guessing or misinforming folks
:| :roll:
 

Z12XE

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The speed limit for bicycles is the same as for cars and motorbikes.

No it isn't - unless you are somewhere with specific limits in the Bye Laws, promenade or parks etc. You can however be "done" for being dangerous.

The rules on speeding in the Highway Code apply to motor vehicles, Bicycles are not motor vehicles


IANAL though
 

starrymarkb

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Yes it is, the council had to legally suspend the 20mph limit though the city for the Tour Series cycle race even though the road was closed to traffic. I can't imagine them lifting it solely for the camera moto
 

MrC

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Also, speedos in cabs can be out by a few mph depending on any number of factors and a driver can ask for verification if pulled up for speeding. On our units there are three separate speed readings available in a cab and it's rare for two to agree, let alone all three.
 

GB

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Also, speedos in cabs can be out by a few mph depending on any number of factors and a driver can ask for verification if pulled up for speeding. On our units there are three separate speed readings available in a cab and it's rare for two to agree, let alone all three.

Your right, there are three speedo's in our cabs (The main dial speedo, Qtron and OTDR) and its rare event they all match up.

As others have said, you will get downloaded after every incident (whether its your fault or not) and periodic random downloads throughout the year. The amount of random downloads you get will depend on your company and if you are a new driver or not.

Its not unknown for tocs and NR to be out with a speed gun (though is fairly rare) and its not unknown to have reports of speeding from other drivers or pway staff...in these instances the OTDR can either be your best friend or worst enemy.

Discrepencies can also flag up on TRUST, if you are well under time at certain points with no real reason, then you may well get a download!
 

MrC

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Its not unknown for tocs and NR to be out with a speed gun (though is fairly rare)
Got to admit I've not seen a speed gun for years - although that's not to say they haven't just improved their camouflage :)
 

Old Timer

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.......A simple question that has puzzled me for a while: what are the rules when it comes to train drivers 'speeding' (ie: exceeding permitted linespeed)?
From BR days
Up to 5 mph - No action
5 to 10 mph - Reported to home depot
10 to 15 mph - Advised at next booked stop and (usually) seen by Traction Inspector or modern equivalent
15 to 20 mph - Stopped by signals at next convenient location (usually a station), if disputed train taken out of service. If accepted Driver forward to first available point for relief.

Above 20 mph immediate stop by signals. Forward next station and Driver relieved.

In the case of freight, station is nearest siding or Loop, or other location where the train can be regulated around.
 

DaveNewcastle

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With regards to the TPWS - do emergency brake applications occur frequently as a result of passing over them too quickly, or are they a rarity?
Out of interest, has anyone on the forum ever been on a service where one has occurred? I bet that was interesting...imaging the announcement the Conductor would need to make to explain that one! :lol:
Yes, a few times. Its would be the driver explaining a TPWS initiated standstill. I've heard " in case you were wondering why we came to such as rapid stop . . . . one of the train's safety systems . . . . there isn't a fault and we'll be on our way in a few moments . . . ".

A similator is exactly what is says - it simulates the real thing. Hence, you can compare the two.
But I think you're missing something (not that I've ever seen a simulator). While road speed limits are set at particular speeds for a variety of political reasons with safety in mind, they leave the car driver to assess their own safe speed. Rail limits are much more closely tied into the design and maintenance of the p'way (and to some extent the capabilities of certain stock, particularly its breaking abilities). And rail drivers are routinely expected to sustain the speed for the combination of (ever-changing) p'way linespeed and the permitted speeds of their stock and traction. I don't expect computer simulators have built in the variables for movement in the railhead under the varying vertical and lateral pressures from a few hundred tons bearing on them at changing vectors. In fact I'd guess that computer simulators don't simulate anything to do with the track at all, and treat it as if its just a route through a 2 dimensional space like a car on a road. Or am I underestimating them?
 

Dennis

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Got to admit I've not seen a speed gun for years - although that's not to say they haven't just improved their camouflage :)

They are still out and about, spotted one a couple of weeks ago where the linespeed had recently been reduced. NR van with man in hi-vi on an overbridge bridge, certainly not camouflaged.
 

TDK

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There's no 'usually' about it; every TPWS fitment is individually calculated depending on gradient and line speed. If the OSS (overspeed sensor system) did happen to be placed at 300 metres from the signal, its set speed would be 43.5 mph, not 47 mph.

12.5 mph is the correct set speed for a buffer stop OSS.

:| :roll:

Incorrect, 10mph is the speed in the rule book and all the TPWS briefings that a driver should be under on the approach to buffer stops. as for the signals approximately 300m - depending on gradient set at 47mph as a general rule,line speed does not really come into it unless it is under 50mph. Your reply is somewhat contradictory,on a down gradient at 300m surely it would be greater that 43.5andon an up gradient less????

FYI I have downloaded trains travelling less that 12.5mph that have trigered the TPWS OSS at buffers, as low as 10.9mph, these must have been wrongly installed???? And your employment is Railsigns? Do you work for the railway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, speedos in cabs can be out by a few mph depending on any number of factors and a driver can ask for verification if pulled up for speeding. On our units there are three separate speed readings available in a cab and it's rare for two to agree, let alone all three.

If a driver is accused of speeding the train is taken out and then tested for speedo accuracy, equipment working correctly and also wheel diameters.
 
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Old Timer

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........But I think you're missing something (not that I've ever seen a simulator). While road speed limits are set at particular speeds for a variety of political reasons with safety in mind, rail limits are much more closely tied into the design and maintenance of the p'way (and to some extent the capabilities of certain stock, particularly its breaking abilities). I don't expect computer simulators have built in the variables for movement in the railhead under the varying vertical and lateral pressures from a few hundred tons bearing on them at changing vectors. In fact I'd guess that computer simulators don't simulate anything to do with the track at all, and treat it as if its just a route through a 2 dimensional space. Or am I underestimating them?
Definitely underestimating !

For gauging purposes the programme assesses the movement of the vehicle taking into account tolerances for wheel wear, loading, and deflection on the suspension, and associates that with variations in the tolerance of the track both up to and slighty above the maintenance "intervention level". In this way we can assess the picture of the swept envelope relative to line side structures.

When we do a track renewal our design also looks at a number of these elements.

Maximum speed of atrain therefore is more related to the risk of the vehicles striking another train or a lineside structure such as a platform rather than becoming derailed.

There is quite a considerable tolerance before that becomes a realistic risk, although the ride quality at that stage will be like Alton Towers.

One thing that many Drivers fail to understand is that with modern S&C we can give a very smooth ride through the S&C on the diversionary routes, and this leads Drivers to running at ever higher speeds. The problem is that this leads to excessive wear on the switches which then fail much quicker than they should.

This was a particular problem for us at Doncaster South Yorkshire Jct when we raised the line speed slightly and then found that Drivers were pushing even this higher speed. As a result we were experiencing incredible fast wear on the switch rails.

As a result we had to bring the speed guns out and capture a few.

Issues such as this cannot be seen by Drivers but they do have a marked effect on the quality and lifespan of the track and its components.

Track technology is now in the computer age and is no longer something that we can "eye in". Those of us who take a pride in the job talk about longitudinal variations measured in mm over maybe a 1000m and the track monitoring trains now measure very accurately how the track is performing or not.

We can now "see" a section of new track deteriorating and can now intervene to carry out remedial work whilst it is still under our care, and we have the site planned for potential follow up snag works.
 

Railsigns

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Incorrect, 10mph is the speed in the rule book and all the TPWS briefings that a driver should be under on the approach to buffer stops. as for the signals approximately 300m - depending on gradient set at 47mph as a general rule,line speed does not really come into it unless it is under 50mph.

FYI I have downloaded trains travelling less that 12.5mph that have trigered the TPWS OSS at buffers, as low as 10.9mph, these must have been wrongly installed????
Nothing that I wrote is incorrect; it's all in the standards.

12.5 mph is the current standard for buffer stop fitments; originally it was 10 mph, but was increased a few years ago.
 

Old Timer

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Nothing that I wrote is incorrect; it's all in the standards.

12.5 mph is the current standard for buffer stop fitments; originally it was 10 mph, but was increased a few years ago.
Railsigns is correct.

The TPWS limit was raised because of the sheer volume of TPWS interventions which were occuring to trains entering dead end platforms.
 

TDK

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Nothing that I wrote is incorrect; it's all in the standards.

12.5 mph is the current standard for buffer stop fitments; originally it was 10 mph, but was increased a few years ago.

The loops were changed 3 years after intallation and I won't argue with you but I have evidence that I can prove the mini loops when installed were set at 10mph, this was because the original loops were not accurate enough and the drivers then had to slow to 5mph to avoid an activation. What standards are you referring to and could you send me the link as these have not widely been puslished for both management or drivers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Railsigns is correct.

The TPWS limit was raised because of the sheer volume of TPWS interventions which were occuring to trains entering dead end platforms.

This was raised due to the innacurate original loops was it not old timer, the mini loops were intalled with a 10mph setting? Could you send me some evidence as this has not been fed through to the Management or the drivers, well not with the 3 compainies I have worked for
 
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Railsigns

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as for the signals approximately 300m - depending on gradient set at 47mph as a general rule,line speed does not really come into it unless it is under 50mph.

These are the nominal OSS distances and the corresponding set speeds, depending on the attainable speed and assuming no variation due to gradient:

25 mph: . . . . . . 50 metres / 18.5 mph
30-35 mph: . . . . 75 metres / 22 mph
40-45 mph: . . . . 125 metres / 27.5 mph
50-55 mph: . . . . 200 metres / 34.5 mph
60-70 mph: . . . . 275 metres / 41.5 mph
75 mph and over: 350 metres / 46 mph

Source: Network Rail Standard NR/SP/SIG/10138.

Your reply is somewhat contradictory,on a down gradient at 300m surely it would be greater that 43.5andon an up gradient less????

No. The distance may be varied to take account of gradient, but the set speed is always determined from the distance alone. If you increase the distance, you have to increase the set speed accordingly.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Definitely underestimating !

For gauging purposes the programme assesses the movement of the vehicle taking into account

. . .

We can now "see" a section of new track deteriorating and can now intervene to carry out remedial work whilst it is still under our care, and we have the site planned for potential follow up snag works.
Thanks. And Yes. But are we at cross purposes here?

In post #16 I was responding to :
In a car, a driver can speed if they wish and risk getting caught (fine and 3 points etc). I've often used the various rail simulators and, seen as though they are simulators, it does no harm to 'speed' and break the designated linespeed. Obviously in the real thing it's very different, so what's the crack?

Methinks the OP's simulator is NOT the same as OT's analyser.
 

Old Timer

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This was raised due to the innacurate original loops was it not old timer, the mini loops were intalled with a 10mph setting? Could you send me some evidence as this has not been fed through to the Management or the drivers, well not with the 3 compainies I have worked for
All I can say is that this was WELL KNOWN by TOC managers as it was they who were in the forefront of the push for this change.

It appears so often the case that TOCs do not disseminate information down through their structures.

The modifcations were no secret, everyone from NR to TOC to the HMRI and RSSB were involved.

The Standards are clearly set out in available documents, albeit I do not have the time right now to actually link them or point you in their direction.

Maybe Railsigns can do so ?

EDIT
Actually it appears he has done so !
 

The Snap

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Thanks. And Yes. But are we at cross purposes here?

In post #16 I was responding to :


Methinks the OP's simulator is NOT the same as OT's analyser.

The simulators I was initially referring to were computer based ones available to the public, which obviously have no bearing on driving a real train whatsoever, other than to give a rough impression of what it's like.

The industry simulators however, as Old Timer said, are far more sophisticated. Having never used one, though, I can’t really comment on those! Although from what OT said, I would suggest that a real train and an industry simulator are comparable, on the basis that everything a real train driver experiences seems to be simulated.

OT, I assume therefore that the industry simulators simulate cant and cant deficiencies etc? How about rail deficiencies such as dipped joints and rail head corrosion?
 

Old Timer

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....OT, I assume therefore that the industry simulators simulate cant and cant deficiencies etc? How about rail deficiencies such as dipped joints and rail head corrosion?
Ahhh.

I was talking of the computer progamme we use to assess track geometry design and line speed rather than referring to the training simulators.

I could not conclusively comment on the driver training simulators, because I have not been in any UK ones, however I cannot see that a "responsive" system such as those used by airlines for example would be of benefit as at the point you are feeeling ride discomfort you would be well beyond acceptable day to day speed limits, and that is not the point of the simulators, they are more geared towards train handling and route learning.

That said I am sure one of the chaps who has been through a simulator will be definitively able to comment.
 

MrC

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I think some companies have moving simulators much like you get at amusement parks etc. The ones we get to go on are static cabs with display screens in front of the drivers window. TBH they're very good at training drivers in cab layout and set-up, safety comms, out of course working, emergency situations and other scenarios where the 'sense' of driving isn't needed. They're not so good for areas like braking technique and low adhesion training where a driver needs to feel what's happening to their train in different scenarios and conditions.

Be interesting to hear if other drivers have used the full-blown moving simulators and if so how realistic they are.
 

The Snap

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Ahhh.

I was talking of the computer progamme we use to assess track geometry design and line speed rather than referring to the training simulators.

I could not conclusively comment on the driver training simulators, because I have not been in any UK ones, however I cannot see that a "responsive" system such as those used by airlines for example would be of benefit as at the point you are feeeling ride discomfort you would be well beyond acceptable day to day speed limits, and that is not the point of the simulators, they are more geared towards train handling and route learning.

That said I am sure one of the chaps who has been through a simulator will be definitively able to comment.

Ahh I see, that makes more sense then. I assume then that this kind of software is similar to that used on the NMT, for example?

We've had a few interesting lectures at University as part of the course I do from various NR chaps - one was particularly interesting...a guy came in from the NR Rail Vehicle Interface & Track Dynamics team (or something along those lines), who talked about much of what you discussed in your earlier post regarding switch rails and railhead wear.
 

87031

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where things a bit more laid back ion the BR days more so loco hauled? Was there any type of recorder on older trains
 
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