Speeding Fine

[Ediswan]

Assume you're driving at 30mph and something - a child following a ball - blocks your path, and you brake and stop just before the obstruction. Assume instead that you were driving at 40mph, obviously you wouldn't stop in time, so what would your speed have been at your previous stopping point?
"Simple" logic says 10mph.
Reality is 30mph.

Useful message, but unfair question, too complicated for most people using just mental arithmetic.
v^2 = u^2 +2as
Assume a is constant (probably some variation, but you have to start somewhere)
Assume s=1 (any value would work)
Solve for a using v=0, u=30 (-450)
Solve for v using u=40 and a found above
Using technology, I make that around 26.5mph (which is close enough to 30mph for the point being made)

 

[Cowley]

A friend of mine did a Speed Awareness Course a few years back for something like 36 in a 30 zone.
The main lesson he got out of the course - which I've since done my best to adopt myself - is:
30 zone - no more than 3rd gear,
20 zone - no more than 2nd gear.

I know what you’re saying but that would massively depend on the gear ratios of the car.

If I was doing 20 in second in our T5 or Golf it would be inefficient but not particularly bad. If I was doing it in my daughters little Skoda the valves would be bouncing off the inside of the bonnet!

 

[ABB125]

I know what you’re saying but that would massively depend on the gear ratios of the car.

If I was doing 20 in second in our T5 or Golf it would be inefficient but not particularly bad. If I was doing it in my daughters little Skoda the valves would be bouncing off the inside of the bonnet!

Fun fact (that's sort of related...): a (petrol) Peugeot 107 will do an indicated 30 in every gear*. Just. It's not very happy in either 1st or 5th though!

*For obvious reasons, this doesn't include reverse

 

[GS250]

I'm not particularly proud to say I've been on 2x speed awareness courses. I did find them interesting and picked up some important tips not related to actual speeding. Like when you stop to turn right, especially just after the brow on a hill, never turn your wheels until you are actually starting to turn right. An easy and lazy habit to fall into. Reason? A vehicle who's behind you and who's driver isn't concentrating reaches the brow of the hill but sees you at the last second. Brakes hard but hits you at about 10mph. Rather than go forward, you get pushed into the right hand lane, just in perfect time for the car on the other side of the road to slam into you at 50mph.

Have to say though with speed cameras popping up absolutely everywhere, especially the average speed cameras, I tend to just stick the cruise control slightly above the limit (all speedos read a tad high) and keep it at that.

The 'general' tolerances on cameras are:

35mph (speedo probably reads 36-37)
46mph
57mph
68mph
79mph (speedo probably reads 81-83)

So there's just no excuse really.

Don't be fooled by the 'variable limit' cameras either on smart motorways. They are on occasions, getting turned on even when there is no visible reduction in the limit of 70.

 

[Speed43125]

Don't be fooled by the 'variable limit' cameras either on smart motorways. They are on occasions, getting turned on even when there is no visible reduction in the limit of 70.

This is why you get the charade on the M25 of everyone doing 90ish as people used to back in the day, but then a sea of brake lights at every gantry as people slow down to about 78 for the cameras.

 

[bramling]

Best advice I got on the course was to be in an appropriate gear. Too high a gear and the car will try to run away with you.

Not entirely sure I agree with the notion of keep changing gear to control speed. Personally I’m one who tends to get the car into the highest gear and keep it there as far as possible, which has never caused me a problem, though the one thing to be aware of is not to lug the engine when climbing a hill.

 

[Ken H]

This is why you get the charade on the M25 of everyone doing 90ish as people used to back in the day, but then a sea of brake lights at every gantry as people slow down to about 78 for the cameras.

Thats stupid. The smart motorway cameras are average speed ones I thought.

 

[Bald Rick]

They are on occasions, getting turned on even when there is no visible reduction in the limit of 70.

The are usually on at 70.

 

[Meerkat]

Personally I didn’t learn anything, except that when asked by the trainers (both ex coppers) “so why were you speeding“ that acceptable answers are ‘I didn’t know the limit’, ‘I was late and in a rush’, ‘the kids were playing up’, ‘I didnt realise what speed I was going’. Don’t do what I did, and say “because I like driving fast”.

That's illogical - surely safer to be speeding deliberately and driving to the conditions than to not even realise what speed you were doing or admit you were distracted!

Thats stupid. The smart motorway cameras are average speed ones I thought.

Nope, average speed zones are relatively rare fortunately - pretty risky places with people staring at their speedos, major bunching, extreme tailgating by lorries etc etc

 

[Bald Rick]

Thats stupid. The smart motorway cameras are average speed ones I thought.

no, they are definitely ‘spot’ speed cameras.

That's illogical - surely safer to be speeding deliberately and driving to the conditions than to not even realise what speed you were doing or admit you were distracted!

No comment, m’lud!

 

[richw]

Ford/VolvoPowershift? If it is , sell it now before it goes horribly and expensively wrong

No VAG DSG ( Seat)

I’ve got a lifetime warranty (max claim the purchase price up until 100000 miles, then max claim £2500 once past 100000)

 

[dangie]

Not only have I got to pay for the fine/Speed Awareness Course, I also have to provide a stamp to send off my completed form. It's getting worse.......

 

[jfollows]

Not only have I got to pay for the fine/Speed Awareness Course, I also have to provide a stamp to send off my completed form. It's getting worse.......

I advise you to send it first class with proof of posting from a Post Office, this might be a bit of a faff but it's belt-and-braces in case the police mislay it which could result in your getting charged for failure to provide the information, which is six points and badly hurts your insurance.

 

[GS250]

Thats stupid. The smart motorway cameras are average speed ones I thought.

A lot of Smart motorway cameras are a pair on the left hand side of the gantry. They are indeed of the 'Gatso' type mode of operation.

I think within ten years there will be huge swathes of motorways and A roads covered with average speed cameras that relay info on to the next police force. You literally won't have any chance to actually drive to the conditions as opposed to the law.

Every trip will be similar to the film 'Duel'.

 

[66701GBRF]

How long does it usually take (on average) for the NIP to come through?

 

[jfollows]

How long does it usually take (on average) for the NIP to come through?

It has to be delivered to the registered keeper of the car (as defined by the V5C "logbook") within 14 days, per the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1). Essentially you used to be stopped at the time of the alleged offence whereas now you're contacted by post later, so the contact has to be made within a relatively short time to be fair to ensure that the keeper remembers the details at the time in question.
You didn't ask this; it's unusual nowadays for the police to mess up and normally the notice of intended prosecution will be delivered in about a week.
Remember that if you're leasing a car or using a company car the registered keeper will probably not be you, and there is no further requirement for time to contact the alleged driver within any particular time if so. It could take several weeks in which a finance company is the registered keeper, names the company, which then names the probable driver.

Requirement of warning etc. of prosecutions for certain offences.
(1)Subject to section 2 of this Act, [F1a person shall not be convicted of an offence to which this section applies unless]—
(a)he was warned at the time the offence was committed that the question of prosecuting him for some one or other of the offences to which this section applies would be taken into consideration, or
(b)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a summons (or, in Scotland, a complaint) for the offence was served on him, or
(c)within fourteen days of the commission of the offence a notice of the intended prosecution specifying the nature of the alleged offence and the time and place where it is alleged to have been committed, was—
(i)in the case of an offence under section 28 or 29 of the M1Road Traffic Act 1988 (cycling offences), served on him,
(ii)in the case of any other offence, served on him or on the person, if any, registered as the keeper of the vehicle at the time of the commission of the offence.
[F2(1ZA)In the case of an offence to be prosecuted in England and Wales, a notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person in accordance with Criminal Procedure Rules.
(1ZB)For the purposes of subsection (1ZA)—
(a)Criminal Procedure Rules (as they have effect from time to time) apply to the notice as if it were a document to be served in criminal proceedings before a magistrates’ court, and
(b)any magistrates’ court may discharge functions conferred on a court by those Rules in relation to such service.
(1ZC)In the case of an offence to be prosecuted elsewhere, subsections (1A) and (2) apply.]
[F3(1A)A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—
(a)by delivering it to him;
(b)by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or
(c)by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.]
(2)A notice shall be deemed for the purposes of subsection (1)(c) above to have been served on a person if it was sent by registered post or recorded delivery service addressed to him at his last known address, notwithstanding that the notice was returned as undelivered or was for any other reason not received by him.
(3)The requirement of subsection (1) above shall in every case be deemed to have been complied with unless and until the contrary is proved.
(4)Schedule 1 to this Act shows the offences to which this section applies.

The last NIP my household received was for an offence on 8 September 2022, the NIP was dated 13 September 2022 and was received on 15 September 2022. This seems typical.

 

[philthetube]

That’s probably the same for many of us,it’s surprising what you forget.

Go in with an open mind and you will get more out of it if you participate. Sadly several on my course just sat there waiting for it to be over.

We were told that non participation could result in being referred back to the police.

I advise you to send it first class with proof of posting from a Post Office, this might be a bit of a faff but it's belt-and-braces in case the police mislay it which could result in your getting charged for failure to provide the information, which is six points and badly hurts your insurance.

My first letter went missing, my fault, I left it on my passenger seat and it fell down the back. I got a second letter asking me again.

A lot of Smart motorway cameras are a pair on the left hand side of the gantry. They are indeed of the 'Gatso' type mode of operation.

I think within ten years there will be huge swathes of motorways and A roads covered with average speed cameras that relay info on to the next police force. You literally won't have any chance to actually drive to the conditions as opposed to the law.

Every trip will be similar to the film 'Duel'.

Quite a few average speed cameras are being installed on country roads, certainly in Lancs, stop the racetracks.

 

[66701GBRF]

It has to be delivered to the registered keeper of the car (as defined by the V5C "logbook") within 14 days, per the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/section/1). Essentially you used to be stopped at the time of the alleged offence whereas now you're contacted by post later, so the contact has to be made within a relatively short time to be fair to ensure that the keeper remembers the details at the time in question.
You didn't ask this; it's unusual nowadays for the police to mess up and normally the notice of intended prosecution will be delivered in about a week.
Remember that if you're leasing a car or using a company car the registered keeper will probably not be you, and there is no further requirement for time to contact the alleged driver within any particular time if so. It could take several weeks in which a finance company is the registered keeper, names the company, which then names the probable driver.

The last NIP my household received was for an offence on 8 September 2022, the NIP was dated 13 September 2022 and was received on 15 September 2022. This seems typical.

Thanks. I always thought the NIP had to be dated within 2 weeks of the offence but could actually be posted (and received) much later to account for delays etc.

 

[12LDA28C]

A friend of mine did a Speed Awareness Course a few years back for something like 36 in a 30 zone.
The main lesson he got out of the course - which I've since done my best to adopt myself - is:
30 zone - no more than 3rd gear,
20 zone - no more than 2nd gear.

Not much use if you drive an automatic.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks. I always thought the NIP had to be dated within 2 weeks of the offence but could actually be posted (and received) much later to account for delays etc.

Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside (https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff73c60d03e7f57eaa291, for example) is where a NIP was delivered more than 2 weeks after the alleged offence to the registered keeper, and Mr. Gidden had to use his postman as a witness to the delivery 16 days after the date of the alleged offence. The NIP was indeed dated within 14 days, but this was held to be immaterial. The problem, of course, is the burden of proof for late delivery is high and difficult to achieve without a witness such as Gidden had.
So Gidden won this case; the caveat is that this only applies to the first NIP to the registered keeper, and sometimes people mistakenly think they're off the hook because of late delivery when it turns out they're not the registered keeper and the NIP was initially sent to the actual registered keeper in time.

 

[12LDA28C]

I believe there are various regulations that have to be adhered to as regards speed (sorry, 'safety') cameras such as adequate signage, calibration of the cameras and so on. Always useful to know your rights as a motorist - it might help you to keep your licence one day. Not that I'm advocating speeding of course...

 

[jfollows]

I believe there are various regulations that have to be adhered to as regards speed (sorry, 'safety') cameras such as adequate signage, calibration of the cameras and so on. Always useful to know your rights as a motorist - it might help you to keep your licence one day. Not that I'm advocating speeding of course...

Yes, but (a) signs warning of the presence of speed cameras are not required, they are only generally provided because the police know that the warning signs will have an effect on curbing speeds by themselves, and (b) calibration certificates are usually a red herring brought up by people desperate to find a loophole and just mark them out as such.

 

[12LDA28C]

calibration certificates are usually a red herring brought up by people desperate to find a loophole and just mark them out as such.

Incorrect. It's a Government requirement that cameras are calibrated once a year.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/98933/17550-cal-guide-UNIPARSL700.pdf

 

[jfollows]

Incorrect. It's a Government requirement that cameras are calibrated once a year.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/98933/17550-cal-guide-UNIPARSL700.pdf

And the Home Office, as was, takes the position (quoted in http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t40743.html):

‘We consider that once a device has been type approved, its evidence should generally be accepted by the courts. The only challenge which can be made, we would hold, is one that refers to the particular device used on a particular occasion and alleges that it is materially different from the device that was type approved, or that on that occasion it malfunctioned, or that on that occasion its use did not comply with any conditions formally set down in the type approval order, or that on that occasion the device was not operated in accordance with the manufacturer’s handbook or any other guidance that has been issued, e.g. by ACPO.’

The Home Office publication ‘ A Guide to Calibration Requirements for Traffic Enforcement Equipment ‘ refers to calibration and relates to the device used on this occasion. It has on occasions been used as the basis for assertions that certificates whose format does not comply with Dr. MILLER’S guide are invalid or that the absence of a statement within the certificate that a test was passed somehow implies that that test was not done and the calibration process is invalid.
However the following is a Home Office response to a Freedom of Information request in relation to this document:

Home Office research and science
Speedmeter Type Approval
Date: Thu Mar 29 00:00:00 BST 2007
“Thank you for your request for information on the legal status of the calibration process and Dr Miller's guidance on our calibration requirements. Dr Miller is no longer employed by us and so not able to respond to your enquiry himself. We are treating your request as a request for information under the Freedom of information Act.

You express a concern that the calibration of Gatsometer BV type 24 radar does not cover the whole device. The radar, its control unit and AUS camera generate the evidence and are calibrated by Gatsometer. Nothing remains that requires calibration.

Dr Miller's A Guide to Calibration Requirements for Traffic Enforcement Equipment is only guidance to manufacturers. While it is our wish that it is followed, there is no legal requirement that it must be. The purpose of calibration is to provide reassurance to the courts that the device continues to operate accurately and generate reliable evidence. The guidance is not intended for use by the Safety CameraPartnerships.

It is not a condition on the type approval of any device that it must be annually calibrated in accordance with Dr Miller's guidance. Failure to do so does not effect its type approval.”

... so you've got to be wary if you're trying to go down the route of questioning the calibration of a speed camera, the lack of evidence of annual calibration in line with the guidelines does not invalidate the prosecution's case.
EDIT I am unaware of any case which has been overturned on the basis of a lack of camera calibration this century, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been, of course, I am only an interested observer.
You're completely right that the prosecution has to comply with the law, but more fruitful avenues are "vague locus" - the location of the alleged offence not being accurately described, "incorrect time/date" - they sometimes mess up the times when the clocks change, or "late delivery" as described above. In the cases of the first two examples, it'd be in the recipient's interest to hold off replying until after 14 days have passed to ensure that a compliant NIP can't be served within 14 days.

 

[12LDA28C]

And the Home Office, as was, takes the position (quoted in http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t40743.html):

... so you've got to be wary if you're trying to go down the route of questioning the calibration of a speed camera, the lack of evidence of annual calibration in line with the guidelines does not invalidate the prosecution's case.
EDIT I am unaware of any case which has been overturned on the basis of a lack of camera calibration this century, but that doesn't mean that there hasn't been, of course, I am only an interested observer.
You're completely right that the prosecution has to comply with the law, but more fruitful avenues are "vague locus" - the location of the alleged offence not being accurately described, "incorrect time/date" - they sometimes mess up the times when the clocks change, or "late delivery" as described above. In the cases of the first two examples, it'd be in the recipient's interest to hold off replying until after 14 days have passed to ensure that a compliant NIP can't be served within 14 days.

All I can say with any certainty that some years ago I received a speeding fine through the post and challenged it along the lines of 'can you provide me with evidence that the camera has been calibrated within the required timescale'... and heard no more about it.

 

[GS250]

All I can say with any certainty that some years ago I received a speeding fine through the post and challenged it along the lines of 'can you provide me with evidence that the camera has been calibrated within the required timescale'... and heard no more about it

Ahh, that old chestnut. I do know of some others who have got away with it by taking this line.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Speed limits aren't imposed as a laugh to catch out poor unsuspecting motorists but to reduce accidents in known blackspots. I support average speed cameras as they maintain traffic flow rather than the stop / start of wretched speed bumps. In Cornwall average speed cameras are to be installed on the notoriously dangerous A38 between the Tamar Bridge and Trerulefoot (en route to Liskeard) which has claimed many victims over the years.

 

[DustyBin]

I got caught doing 37 in a 30 a few years ago by a mobile camera, having sped up a (very) short distance before it changed to 40 (I know the road well, it’s half a mile from where I live). I was bang to rights but decided not to play ball. I won in court but I absolutely do not recommend pursuing this route! (Unless you’re facing a ban etc. in which case it may be worth the considerable hassle).

 

[simonw]

All I can say with any certainty that some years ago I received a speeding fine through the post and challenged it along the lines of 'can you provide me with evidence that the camera has been calibrated within the required timescale'... and heard no more about it.

Have (touch wood) only received on notification (I attended the awareness course which was informative). The information provided included when the camera was last calibrated.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

A friend of mine did a Speed Awareness Course a few years back for something like 36 in a 30 zone.
The main lesson he got out of the course - which I've since done my best to adopt myself - is:
30 zone - no more than 3rd gear,
20 zone - no more than 2nd gear.

Interesting as the engine 'feels' comfortable at 30 in 4th gear in every car I have ever driven with one exception, that exception being-a work 'pool' car, a diesel Ford Escort circa 30 years ago which had to be kept in 3rd in a 30.

In a 20mph zone I tend to drive in 3rd.