Speed upgrades and electrification

[Bald Rick]

I think the Brighton Mainline and the Southwestern Mainline should become 125mph with OLE.

What do you think would be the benefit of doing this?

 

[Tio Terry]

It's worth remembering that if you lift line speeds above 100 mph you have to consider the need for greater safety requirements for lineside staff. The safe distance to stand increases above 100 mph so it may become necessary to construct a safe cess, refuges and provide automatic staff warning systems. You can, of course, restrict train speeds if it is necessary for staff to be lineside but that rather defeats the object. This all adds cost and for a few seconds may make it a rather expensive exercise. If there are any public level crossings involved, pedestrian or vehicular, you are into a whole new ball game with sighting distances, warning systems, closures, bridges and risk assessments galore!

 

[Bald Rick]

If there are any public level crossings involved, pedestrian or vehicular, you are into a whole new ball game with sighting distances, warning systems, closures, bridges and risk assessments galore!

The same applies to any level crossing, public or private, for any increase in linespeed.

 

[RH Liner]

The flat crossing on the ECML is a bottleneck and it obviously needs to be slower than other sections of the route but I don't know how you divert the Lincoln - Nottingham line (under? over? finding a new place to cross the ECML?) given the A46 and the River Trent - it's such a tight corridor that I don't know how we solve the problem (much as I'd love to - it's clearly an issue - it'd be a big help on Lincoln - Nottingham services as well as simplifying things along the ECML)

The flat crossing on the ECML is a bottleneck and it obviously needs to be slower than other sections of the route but I don't know how you divert the Lincoln - Nottingham line (under? over? finding a new place to cross the ECML?) given the A46 and the River Trent - it's such a tight corridor that I don't know how we solve the problem (much as I'd love to - it's clearly an issue - it'd be a big help on Lincoln - Nottingham services as well as simplifying things along the ECML)

This suggestion might be totally impractical but try it for size. Build a new link from Fiskerton (for Southwell) to a flyover junction south of Newark Northgate to access Platform 3 and a new 4 which whose tracks would continue onto the Lincoln line. You could then close the current Castle station and the adjacent level crossing which is a major nuisance to road traffic into or out of the town. It would be possible to retain the existing line from Fiskerton to the Castle crossing as a single track branch to a re-sited single platform and terminal Castle station on the other side of the crossing. This would allow local services from Nottingham to terminate at a station in Newark closer to the town centre than is Northgate. Northgate would, nevertheless, become a heightened interchange station giving Nottingham useful connections with trains to the north.

 

[Bald Rick]

This suggestion might be totally impractical but try it for size. Build a new link from Fiskerton (for Southwell) to a flyover junction south of Newark Northgate to access Platform 3 and a new 4 which whose tracks would continue onto the Lincoln line. You could then close the current Castle station and the adjacent level crossing which is a major nuisance to road traffic into or out of the town. It would be possible to retain the existing line from Fiskerton to the Castle crossing as a single track branch to a re-sited single platform and terminal Castle station on the other side of the crossing. This would allow local services from Nottingham to terminate at a station in Newark closer to the town centre than is Northgate. Northgate would, nevertheless, become a heightened interchange station giving Nottingham useful connections with trains to the north.

That would be a very long way round, and need big and expensive bridges over the A46, River Trent and the ECML.

Far easier to stick to the plan of going over the Trent and ECML just off line. On one viaduct.

 

[BerkshireRails]

Why the Brighton Line? you're not going to get above existing linespeed until you're on the Quarry lines which is halfway to Brighton so you'd save a handful of seconds, especially after stopping at Gatwick and Haywards Heath. 100mph and conversion to OLE would be nice but is very much not a priority.
Similarly with the SWML, there's very few places going to 125mph would help. OLE would make sense for the SWML west of Basingstoke but the cost of conversion would be difficult to justify when commuter lines in Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds aren't electrified at all. That's before the issue of getting past the train in front that's stopping ahead of you.

The gains are really marginal for what is very much a secondary line. In an ideal world extending the 3rd rail to Shalford and using battery units so they just have to manage Reigate-Shalford and Ash Vale-Wokingham off the juice would make the most sense.

In an ideal world would it not have already been electrified with 25Kv AC OLE?

 

[zwk500]

In an ideal world would it not have already been electrified with 25Kv AC OLE?

Which line?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Which line?

The North Downs Line.

 

[zwk500]

The North Downs Line.

Depends on what you mean by an 'ideal' world, I suppose. In a fantasy perfect world then yes the conversion of the entirely Southern Region to OLE and the infill of gaps would have already been done. But in a world where cost is an object, conversion of 3rd rail is just not going to happen any time soon.

 

[BerkshireRails]

If I had unlimited money, I would electrify the North Downs Line with 25Kv AC OLE and raise line speeds from 70mph to 110mph for most of the route, with the Line speed of 30mph through Wokingham being raised to 45mph.

 

[zwk500]

If I had unlimited money, I would electrify the North Downs Line with 25Kv AC OLE and raise line speeds from 70mph to 110mph for most of the route, with the Line speed of 30mph through Wokingham being raised to 45mph.

Yes but we don't. Also raising the linespeed to 110mph for the NDL even with unlimited money is ridiculous given the alignment.

 

[tornado]

They may not be the sexy ones but they are the ones where there's still a lot of scope. But there are also quite a lot of cases where re-alignment would help — look at the gains from the re-modelling of Derby and Reading, and even from the small changes totally within the existing formation at Leicester. As for larger re-alignments, what about doing the Carstairs job properly, building a new curve at Westerleigh, etc, to get rid of very low restrictions in the middle of otherwise high-speed sections. Most of the "quick wins" on the London lines probably have indeed been picked off already, but there's still scope for action on the principal cross-country routes (it would be intersting to re-visit the route-upgrade plans that were the part of the Operation Princess grand scheme never delivered).

If you zoom in on the WCML here it seems to me that the 30 miles from Carstairs to Glasgow (and less realistically the 15 miles from Watford-Euston) could definitely give some gains as all of that is <100mph, although not sure how much?

Line Speeds - Rail Maps

 

[zwk500]

If you zoom in on the WCML here it seems to me that the 30 miles from Carstairs to Glasgow (and less realistically the 15 miles from Watford-Euston) could definitely give some gains as all of that is <100mph, although not sure how much?

Line Speeds - Rail Maps

The issue with those 2 sections is that you start getting other traffic joining in for the runs into Euston and Glasgow Central. The benefit of higher speed is negated by the fact there's a slower train in front of you. Areas like Motherwell would be a key issue.

 

[The Planner]

If you zoom in on the WCML here it seems to me that the 30 miles from Carstairs to Glasgow (and less realistically the 15 miles from Watford-Euston) could definitely give some gains as all of that is <100mph, although not sure how much?

Line Speeds - Rail Maps

It is 125mph EPS from Harlesden at the 6 mile post and 100mph from the 3½ mile post. You aren't getting much more out of that and even then it would just be a performance buffer.

 

[tornado]

So perhaps there isn't anything worthwhile on the WCML left then? Saving, say 15 minutes, London-Glasgow looks like it might only be achieved with 300 miles of 140mph or other impractical upgrades.

 

[notadriver]

Southeastern - a flying junction at Saltwood junction enabling Javelin trains to use HS1 from Ashforfd to Folkestone. If fast trains avoided Ashford, new records would be set between London and Folkestone / Dover.

For the Canterbury branch resignalling and strengthen power supplies to allow 90 mph running. Realignment of Grove ferry to increase line speed from 40 to at least 60 mph.

 

[The Planner]

So perhaps there isn't anything worthwhile on the WCML left then? Saving, say 15 minutes, London-Glasgow looks like it might only be achieved with 300 miles of 140mph or other impractical upgrades.

London to Glasgow would be HS2. The WCML won't be getting substantial, if any, upgrades south of Crewe once that opens.

 

[swt_passenger]

If I had unlimited money, I would electrify the North Downs Line with 25Kv AC OLE and raise line speeds from 70mph to 110mph for most of the route, with the Line speed of 30mph through Wokingham being raised to 45mph.

There’s no practical reason to assume electrification will allow line speed increases on such a scale. Whether it is wires or conrail, that doesn’t automatically make a line faster or straighter, or remove level crossings etc etc. Relatively small timetable improvements might come from the better acceleration of EMUs, but really the two issues are separate.

 

[Starmill]

Southeastern - a flying junction at Saltwood junction enabling Javelin trains to use HS1 from Ashforfd to Folkestone. If fast trains avoided Ashford, new records would be set between London and Folkestone / Dover.

While this is true is there enough demand for the train to be full from Dover Priory, Folkestone Central abd Folkestone West only? You could perhaps close Folkestone West and replace it with a new station at Cheriton but that would also be fairly minor. A through service from the coast could pick up Deal and Walmer to London traffic in addition but again even with all of this would the train be full?

 

[notadriver]

While this is true is there enough demand for the train to be full from Dover Priory, Folkestone Central abd Folkestone West only? You could perhaps close Folkestone West and replace it with a new station at Cheriton but that would also be fairly minor. A through service from the coast could pick up Deal and Walmer to London traffic in addition but again even with all of this would the train be full?

I think Sandwich, Deal and Martin Mill get a raw deal when it comes to journey times - avoiding Ashford could save 20 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2022 ==

There’s no practical reason to assume electrification will allow line speed increases on such a scale. Whether it is wires or conrail, that doesn’t automatically make a line faster or straighter, or remove level crossings etc etc. Relatively small timetable improvements might come from the better acceleration of EMUs, but really the two issues are separate.

I think increases to 90 mph or 100 mph are more feasible - aren’t line speeds often tailored to match the performance of stock that use the route - in that era 1st generation DMUs?

 

[swt_passenger]

I think Sandwich, Deal and Martin Mill get a raw deal when it comes to journey times - avoiding Ashford could save 20 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2022 ==



I think increases to 90 mph or 100 mph are more feasible - aren’t line speeds often tailored to match the performance of stock that use the route - in that era 1st generation DMUs?

Either that or the stock is chosen to match the route capability. Chicken and egg…

 

[cle]

London to Glasgow would be HS2. The WCML won't be getting substantial, if any, upgrades south of Crewe once that opens.

Is there any information yet on what those north of Crewe/Preston upgrades might be?

 

[paul1609]

Marshlink AC electrification, ample spare ac supply at Ashford International, both GTR and Southeastern have spare dual voltage emus, could offer a direct service to London. Simplfy Appledore Station to a single platform and close the Dungeness branch which no longer has any traffic. Simplfy Ore Station so Marshlink trains in both directions use and changeover ac/dc in the down platform. Up platform retained as a turnback for dc stock.
Eliminates last diesel line in Kent, ends the need for 50 mile ecs from Selhurst.
In short win win win win win win. Rail Industry pull your finger out.

 

[Some guy]

Is there any information yet on what those north of Crewe/Preston upgrades might be?

What I’m guessing is with TPE using 802s and 397s they’ll upgrade the speed to 125 for all stock and maybe even 140 for tilting stock as the signalling will make it possible

 

[Starmill]

Is there any information yet on what those north of Crewe/Preston upgrades might be?

There are a number of known necccesary modifications, mainly at Preston, Carlisle and Glasgow Central, to support 400 metre train operation. London - Crewe isn't expected to be in service before 2032-33 however, so there's quite some time to go.

Of course, various enhancements could well be implemented before then but there's no new information on these yet.

 

[cle]

I figured that Carstairs was the only publicized one - that and prepping for EPS speeds for non-tilt, either today's but in advance of HS2 trains also. I'd think/hope there might be some additional spots for removing lower speeds, upgrading approaches etc - which is likely to be the easiest way to trim journey times here and there.

 

[The Planner]

I figured that Carstairs was the only publicized one - that and prepping for EPS speeds for non-tilt, either today's but in advance of HS2 trains also. I'd think/hope there might be some additional spots for removing lower speeds, upgrading approaches etc - which is likely to be the easiest way to trim journey times here and there.

Nothing apart from on the back of fag packets. Non EPS speed increases are Avanti led and south of Weaver, not aware of any serious consideration north of there yet.

 

[Bald Rick]

both GTR and Southeastern have spare dual voltage emus,

not from September they don’t!

 

[mike57]

I think the Brighton Mainline and the Southwestern Mainline should become 125mph with OLE.

Well part of the Brighton Main Line was electified at 6600v AC overhead at one time and there were plans in place to carry on to Brighton, but this was put on hold due to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand...

 

[zwk500]

Well part of the Brighton Main Line was electified at 6600v AC overhead at one time and there were plans in place to carry on to Brighton, but this was put on hold due to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand...

Even if the BML was electrified with OLE, it wouldn't be 125mph. Trains stop too frequently and the distance isn't really long enough to justify the cost of upgrading and maintaining the track to 125mph.