[Speculative] An idea for standardised PCV Drivers Pay

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Do you think there should be a national minimum PCV holders wage?

An example:

Guaranteed £28,850k** Annual Salary, £443.67pw basic take-home(£450.53 from July 2022)
Based on a 5 over 7 roster, 43hr week.

£12.90 x 43hrs = £554.81 - deductions = £ £443.67

**For Permanent Backshift or Nightshift Rosters an increased Guaranteed Salary of £30,450k applies,
£463.91pw basic take-home(£470.76pw from July 2022).**

If a 5 day week exceeds 43hrs the prevailing rate is £13.54 per each additional hour.
If working less than a 43hr week, the Guaranteed Salary applies.

Overtime Rates(6th & 7th day working)
Mon-Sat/£15.10, Sunday/£19.10, OT-Backshifts or Nightshifts/£19.10

Part-Time available based on up-to 3 Days/27hrs per week
Working a variety of shifts, 8-10hrs per day, a flexible 2 or 3 days per week.
Paid hourly at £11.81, weekly pay.
2 days×20hrs per week = Guaranteed £230.08(£236.20 - July 2022).
3 days×27hrs per week = Guaranteed £286.78(£293.64 - July 2022).

 

[Geordie driver]

It's a nice dream but will never happen.

We are not far away from bus driving becoming a minimum wage job.

 

[Dai Corner]

£11 an hour seems to be about the going rate here in south Wales.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

£11 an hour seems to be about the going rate here in south Wales.

That may as well be minimum wage.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

Do you think there should be a national minimum PCV holders wage?

An example:

Guaranteed £28,850k** Annual Salary, £443.67pw basic take-home(£450.53 from July 2022)
Based on a 5 over 7 roster, 43hr week.

£12.90 x 43hrs = £554.81 - deductions = £ £443.67

**For Permanent Backshift or Nightshift Rosters an increased Guaranteed Salary of £30,450k applies,
£463.91pw basic take-home(£470.76pw from July 2022).**

If a 5 day week exceeds 43hrs the prevailing rate is £13.54 per each additional hour.
If working less than a 43hr week, the Guaranteed Salary applies.

Overtime Rates(6th & 7th day working)
Mon-Sat/£15.10, Sunday/£19.10, OT-Backshifts or Nightshifts/£19.10

Part-Time available based on up-to 3 Days/27hrs per week
Working a variety of shifts, 8-10hrs per day, a flexible 2 or 3 days per week.
Paid hourly at £11.81, weekly pay.
2 days×20hrs per week = Guaranteed £230.08(£236.20 - July 2022).
3 days×27hrs per week = Guaranteed £286.78(£293.64 - July 2022).

I’d be happy with that. Back when I started with Strathclyde buses, anything over 38 hrs was paid at time and a half. Then in 94 they consolidated the rate and it was never the same, I think. I’d say that back then, with overtime it was a comparable take home to what I’m doing on 6 days just now.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

I’d be happy with that. Back when I started with Strathclyde buses, anything over 38 hrs was paid at time and a half. Then in 94 they consolidated the rate and it was never the same, I think. I’d say that back then, with overtime it was a comparable take home to what I’m doing on 6 days just now.

the more people you can attract off of normal rotas and onto backshift & nightshift ones the better for those on normal mostly day shift rotas.

also currently in many areas there’s no structure to the pay scale that rewards more money for those doing more shifts in general and in a time where all areas are requiring people to be doing OT due to the shortage of drivers they should be getting rewarded extra for those extra hours or days.

At First Bus at least in Scotland despite being contracted 38-40hrs depending on the local company you are generally payed for around 43hr, maybe a little more, however the company don't pay breaks, a fixed salary would alleviate that problem.

It would not obviously fix the problem in the short term but as a general rule it would help in the long run for those to know each week there wage was £443.67.

 

[Spsf3232]

The problem with the industry isn't pay rates or hourly pay it's the conditions that drivers now have to endure.

You can give a driver an extra £1 an hour if you like but on an average of 40 hour week that's only £40

What the drivers want is to be respected for the time we are out working. Drivers should be paid from time they sign on until they sign off less a minimum break.

Many shifts with big operators now include time traveling between depot and pickup locations unpaid. One shift I did last year had me starting at a remote location which I still had to travel in my own time from the car park at the depot to the pickup point of 40 minutes. My break then included another 40 minutes travel, my official break and 40 minutes travel. I then finished and had to travel 40 minutes back for my car. Of that shift which was a total of 8 hours paid I was traveling for 2 hours 40 minutes plus the hour break!

It's not my choice to have a remote pickup location, it's the companies to make it easier for driver changeovers to save vehicles running out of service and this means it should be paid time. Traveling for the benefit of the company is other work!

Current rate of pay was £11ph giving £88
If they gave a £1 pay rise it would have been £96
But if it was paid for what the driver was working then it would be a massive increase to £117 or £127.

That would solve the driver shortage overnight!!

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

I think that the pay argument is not as important , as the overall terms and conditions argument.

This is witnessed by drivers leaving first Glasgow to go work for Glasgow city bus who have lower rate of pay , but seemingly have better shift patterns and better overall management.

 

[Geordie driver]

The entire industry is deliberately set up and run as a race to the bottom, first there " wins".

I am pretty sure during the recent driver shortage the government looked at extending PCV driving hours as they did with HGV then realised in reality PCV drivers were already being driven to breaking point.

When I started bus driving you could make a good living driving 6 or seven hours a day, by the time I left it was poverty wages for 9 hours + a day.

In London when the government realised so many PCV drivers were dying from COVID, they suggested the companies looked at the hours and conditions drivers were working. But the companies don't care if their drivers live or die, all they care about is profit. My direct experience.

People who have never done it have no idea, hence the chasm between drivers and many enthusiasts. Getting on a bus at 0600 knowing the next time you get to go to the toilet or even stand up is 5 and a half hours of heavy traffic and dealing with hundreds of customers away is grueling.

Then a 30 minute break before more of the same. That break does not have to include time for food or toilet access. Again, my direct experience.

£9.50 and hour round here for new starters and hours and conditions that would turn a robot into a Marxist. They still think the driver shortage is nothing to do with how they treat their drivers.

 

[Deerfold]

Many shifts with big operators now include time traveling between depot and pickup locations unpaid. One shift I did last year had me starting at a remote location which I still had to travel in my own time from the car park at the depot to the pickup point of 40 minutes. My break then included another 40 minutes travel, my official break and 40 minutes travel. I then finished and had to travel 40 minutes back for my car. Of that shift which was a total of 8 hours paid I was traveling for 2 hours 40 minutes plus the hour break!

It's not my choice to have a remote pickup location, it's the companies to make it easier for driver changeovers to save vehicles running out of service and this means it should be paid time. Traveling for the benefit of the company is other work!

I'm not a lawyer, but this doesn't sound legal. If your work requires you to travel after clocking on at the depot, that work should be paid.

A recent court case decreed that for those without a depot, travel from home to the first location they worked at should be paid.

 

[Gloster]

Southern Vectis are (trying) to recruit new drivers, with adverts saying average weekly take-home pay of £440. How does that compare, seeing that the island is always supposed to have lower wages than much of the area to the north?

 

[Man of Kent]

I'm not a lawyer, but this doesn't sound legal. If your work requires you to travel after clocking on at the depot, that work should be paid.

A recent court case decreed that for those without a depot, travel from home to the first location they worked at should be paid.

Travel time may have been consolidated into the basic rate, rather than an overt payment. It's not an uncommon practice, but the fact that it has been done may be overlooked if it was some time ago.

 

[mb88]

Why should the hourly rate for a part time driver be less than for a full time driver?

 

[philthetube]

Travel time may have been consolidated into the basic rate, rather than an overt payment. It's not an uncommon practice, but the fact that it has been done may be overlooked if it was some time ago.

It could be but the basic wage would have to be well above minimum wage to take this into account, and I cannot see that happening as this would be a considerable increase for all staff in many areas.

Back to the op, if this happened expect a mass departure of drivers from London.

 

[computerSaysNo]

People who have never done it have no idea, hence the chasm between drivers and many enthusiasts. Getting on a bus at 0600 knowing the next time you get to go to the toilet or even stand up is 5 and a half hours of heavy traffic and dealing with hundreds of customers away is grueling.

Can't drivers at the very least stand up and wonder around for five minutes at the route termini? I would think that the Operating Company would have negotiated bathroom access at most termini in urban areas as well?

 

[Geordie driver]

Can't drivers at the very least stand up and wonder around for five minutes at the route termini? I would think that the Operating Company would have negotiated bathroom access at most termini in urban areas as well?

Not every route is like the one I described. Not every route has a terminus and even if they did, times are often so tight there is no spare time at terminus. I have seen people disciplined for using the toilet when they are running late. Companies do not consider toilet access to be part of their remit. It's a very strange industry.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Why should the hourly rate for a part time driver be less than for a full time driver?

Because the incentive to recruit full time staff isn't there if the part-time wages are higher than for full time staff, that's why.

Let me say that only one of the problems in the job is not just what you're paid on a Friday but also how you gain that pay. What I mean by this is that the less hours you work the less you make.

Most operations across the UK don't pay the drivers for their breaks. Often on a wage slip it will state 43hrs for example but in actuality you are likely there for at least 4-5hrs more than this, unpaid.

Drivers should be at work for 43hrs and no more. There is an argument from a minority who say I don't want 43 hours I only want 38 or those who say I want more hours for more money.

At the moment there will be no shortage of overtime across the industry hence why a generous 6th or 7th day hourly rate should be increased for those who want extra hours and money.

However, a guaranteed salary safeguards for employees that they won't make any less money within that salary on anything less that 43hrs at work.

 

[notadriver]

Because the incentive to recruit full time staff isn't there if the part-time wages are higher than for full time staff, that's why.

Let me say that only one of the problems in the job is not just what you're paid on a Friday but also how you gain that pay. What I mean by this is that the less hours you work the less you make.

Most operations across the UK don't pay the drivers for their breaks. Often on a wage slip it will state 43hrs for example but in actually fact you are likely there for at least 4-5hrs more than this.

Drivers should be at work for 43hrs and no more. There is an argument from a minority who say I don't want 43 hours I only want 38 or those who say I want more hours for more money.

At the moment there will be no shortage of overtime across the industry hence why a generous 6th or 7th day hourly rate should be increased for those who want extra hours and money.

However, a guaranteed salary safeguards for employees that they won't make any less money within that salary on anything less that 43hrs at work.

The conditions you describe are considerably worse than those working on the railway. There is no reason they should be. At the bare minimum all time at work should be paid for. I believe in a 35 hour working week (that is all time at work) currently bus drivers working 40 hours might actually be at work for 55 hours because ‘spreadovers’ still exist.

A 35 hour week of 4 days (8.75 hours average) coupled with a decent £15/hour rate of pay would make the bus driver role far more appealing.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

The conditions you describe are considerably worse than those working on the railway. There is no reason they should be. At the bare minimum all time at work should be paid for. I believe in a 35 hour working week (that is all time at work) currently bus drivers working 40 hours might actually be at work for 55 hours because ‘spreadovers’ still exist.

A 35 hour week of 4 days (8.75 hours average) coupled with a decent £15/hour rate of pay would make the bus driver role far more appealing.

But of course you'd need considerably more drivers to operate in such a manner if everybody was on a total of 35hrs.

Realistically 35hrs is to low and would make bus services on the road suffer even more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2022 ==

Southern Vectis are (trying) to recruit new drivers, with adverts saying average weekly take-home pay of £440. How does that compare, seeing that the island is always supposed to have lower wages than much of the area to the north?

Saying "average" will hamper there ability to employ people purely based on wages and the way you market the job.

It's may be higher or lower in other words by the end of the week and can often mean that some drivers get better shifts that others.

Some drivers working 12hr spreadovers and not being paid for a considerable portion of that or be on 8hr shifts all week but these shorter shift may mean overall you earn less at the end of the week.

 

[Geordie driver]

Much as I like to day dream about the good old days pre privatisation (and they really were good for the drivers and the customers), no government is ever going to front up the money for this, just as they will never improve drivers hours to the level of EU HGV rules.

Not just the conservatives either, we had a long run of labour governments who did nothing for drivers in the industry too.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Much as I like to day dream about the good old days pre privatisation (and they really were good for the drivers and the customers), no government is ever going to front up the money for this, just as they will never improve drivers hours to the level of EU HGV rules.

Not just the conservatives either, we had a long run of labour governments who did nothing for drivers in the industry too.

I pessimistically do think that it is a downward spiral from here, however, in Glasgow the local authority has proposed spending billions on a tram/metro system.

A much smaller proportion of those billions could buy back bus infrastructure.

The same when it comes to the likes of Edinburgh's Tramway, a small financial drop in the oceon could've significantly prioritise bus services instead of masses of overspending on 1 tramline.

Much of these issues could be fixed with the Government protecting public bus services and including the benefits driver could have.

 

[Spsf3232]

Because the incentive to recruit full time staff isn't there if the part-time wages are higher than for full time staff, that's why.

Let me say that only one of the problems in the job is not just what you're paid on a Friday but also how you gain that pay. What I mean by this is that the less hours you work the less you make.

Most operations across the UK don't pay the drivers for their breaks. Often on a wage slip it will state 43hrs for example but in actuality you are likely there for at least 4-5hrs more than this, unpaid.

Drivers should be at work for 43hrs and no more. There is an argument from a minority who say I don't want 43 hours I only want 38 or those who say I want more hours for more money.

At the moment there will be no shortage of overtime across the industry hence why a generous 6th or 7th day hourly rate should be increased for those who want extra hours and money.

However, a guaranteed salary safeguards for employees that they won't make any less money within that salary on anything less that 43hrs at work.

You can find with big ops that even a 43 hour week will have more than just 4 or 5 hours more unpaid, Some duties can have more than 2 hours off duty as well as unpaid travel time. A 40 hour week can quickly turn into a 60 hour week! If you are to take into account those unpaid hours and work out the wage I would pretty much guarantee your below min wage. That's why drivers are leaving! Pay them what they are due!!

 

[RT4038]

The conditions you describe are considerably worse than those working on the railway. There is no reason they should be. At the bare minimum all time at work should be paid for. I believe in a 35 hour working week (that is all time at work) currently bus drivers working 40 hours might actually be at work for 55 hours because ‘spreadovers’ still exist.

A 35 hour week of 4 days (8.75 hours average) coupled with a decent £15/hour rate of pay would make the bus driver role far more appealing.

Shame there are not many places where the the fares and subsidies are such that those kind of rates and working conditions can be afforded.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Shame there are not many places where the the fares and subsidies are such that those kind of rates and working conditions can be afforded.

But there are many areas which could afford this better than they offer at the moments.

 

[RT4038]

But there are many areas which could afford this better than they offer at the moments.

On what reasoning do you come to that conclusion?

 

[Geordie driver]

I pessimistically do think that it is a downward spiral from here, however, in Glasgow the local authority has proposed spending billions on a tram/metro system.

A much smaller proportion of those billions could buy back bus infrastructure.

The same when it comes to the likes of Edinburgh's Tramway, a small financial drop in the oceon could've significantly prioritise bus services instead of masses of overspending on 1 tramline.

Much of these issues could be fixed with the Government protecting public bus services and including the benefits driver could have.

Buses ain't sexy!

We were on the same money as the Tyne and Wear metro drivers, now about half with much worse conditions.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

On what reasoning do you come to that conclusion?

First Glasgow's combine profit margin ending 2020 was £12.6m.

Not long before that Lothian Buses had made around £16m profit.

Enough profit is necessary to buy new need for example but certainly a little more of this Dan be sacrificed to up the benefit to there front line.

This is why privatisation does not work.

Even with COVID on the scene bus firms have been kept by the tax payer quite handomly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2022 ==

Buses ain't sexy!

We were on the same money as the Tyne and Wear metro drivers, now about half with much worse conditions.

It can't keep up or it will be the eventual end of the industry, not in its entirety but it won't be attractive, it already isnt.

 

[RT4038]

First Glasgow's combine profit margin ending 2020 was £12.6m.

Not long before that Lothian Buses had made around £16m profit.

Enough profit is necessary to buy new need for example but certainly a little more of this Dan be sacrificed to up the benefit to there front line.

But others will say that these profits should be used to keep more services running, rather than paying bus drivers more. The pay offered to bus drivers will be just enough to have sufficient to keep service running. If that means that the rates have to go up to attract staff, then services will be cut as they won't be able to be afforded.

Even with COVID on the scene bus firms have been kept by the tax payer quite handomly.

The bus firms have been paid handsomely to keep bus drivers employed on their present pay and conditions in spite of the massive reduction in demand - no money to pay them even more.

It can't keep up or it will be the eventual end of the industry, not in its entirety but it won't be attractive, it already isnt.

As @Geordie driver says 'Buses ain't sexy'. There is no appetite to subsidise bus services more to pay drivers more. With so few passengers travelling in some areas, the taxi / uber industry beckons to be the public transport of last resort, and we know what good terms and conditions they are on.....

 

[mb88]

Because the incentive to recruit full time staff isn't there if the part-time wages are higher than for full time staff, that's why.

Not sure legally a company would be allowed to pay part time staff a lesser hourly rate than full time staff for doing the same job.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Not sure legally a company would be allowed to pay part time staff a lesser hourly rate than full time staff for doing the same job.

Hence the reason full time workers on a fixed salary where as part time workers I don’t think should be.

If your salaried at £28,850 based on 43hrs, it only works out to £12.90ph.