Speculation, What would replacement Hastings diesels have been like?

[Paul Jones 88]

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, please don't hesitate to move it if required by moderators.
I have been looking at Hastings diesels on You Tube lately and it set me wondering what a second generation Hastings diesel would have been like, if the 1986 electrification and track singling hadn't taken place.
My guess is that it would have been a 210 with six carriages and a narrow profile, however, I may be wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, please don't hesitate to move it if required by moderators.
I have been looking at Hastings diesels on You Tube lately and it set me wondering what a second generation Hastings diesel would have been like, if the 1986 electrification and track singling hadn't taken place.
My guess is that it would have been a 210 with six carriages and a narrow profile, however, I may be wrong.

Given that it was, as you say, 1986, perhaps it would have been a narrow-bodied Class 150, or they'd have done the slewing work but not the electrification and so it'd have actually been a class 150.

 

[RichJF]

I wonder if they would have made the Hastings DEMUs soldier on until the very early 90s & we would've got an extended order for 158/159s configured for the Hastings Line?

 

[mmh]

Given that it was, as you say, 1986, perhaps it would have been a narrow-bodied Class 150, or they'd have done the slewing work but not the electrification and so it'd have actually been a class 150.

Indeed, seems highly likely that it would have ended up being very like a 150, or a 150. Perhaps with more cars, or simply ran as 2x2 or 2x3 pairs. I can't see it would have had above floor engines - it's always seemed odd to me that the 210 did. Anyone have any thoughts over why it did?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

I wonder if they would have made the Hastings DEMUs soldier on until the very early 90s & we would've got an extended order for 158/159s configured for the Hastings Line?

I think it would have been more likely to have been "commuter" style DMUs rather than 158s. Perhaps with a nicer interior than 150s to placate Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here's an off-beat thought - Class 141s would fit, wouldn't they?

Edit: Yep, definitely. 141 was 2.5m wide (standard Leyland bus body on a flat-wagon), Hastings Diesel was 2.74m (not actually that narrow - the narrowest current UK stock, the 444 and 185, are 2.68m).

 

[Islineclear3_1]

A thorough refurb/rebuild of the Hastings Units (Swindon-style 4CEPs) with hopper windows

 

[MattRat]

Here's an off-beat thought - Class 141s would fit, wouldn't they?

Edit: Yep, definitely. 141 was 2.5m wide (standard Leyland bus body on a flat-wagon), Hastings Diesel was 2.74m (not actually that narrow - the narrowest current UK stock, the 444 and 185, are 2.68m).

Oh god, imagine a 6 car Pacer.....

 

[Surreytraveller]

I wonder if they would have made the Hastings DEMUs soldier on until the very early 90s & we would've got an extended order for 158/159s configured for the Hastings Line?

Don't think 158/9s would fit

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't think 158/9s would fit

They likely would with the tunnel singled and slewed as was done in the end. Even if they hadn't electrified they might have done that anyway.

 

[Surreytraveller]

They likely would with the tunnel singled and slewed as was done in the end. Even if they hadn't electrified they might have done that anyway.

The carriages would be too long. Its not the width that would cause them not to fit, its the length around the curves

 

[yorksrob]

I think a 150 would have been too suburban for the main line.

The nearest main line stock built for the southern in time were the Wessex electrics, so perhaps we would have had a diesel version of those ?

 

[skyhigh]

Oh god, imagine a 6 car Pacer.....

(image shows 3x class 142 units in multiple)

 

[mmh]

I think a 150 would have been too suburban for the main line.

The nearest main line stock built for the southern in time were the Wessex electrics, so perhaps we would have had a diesel version of those ?

Thumpers were very suburban though, really. CIGs were the "outer" stuff at the time. And it was an era where things like 150s, and their electric cousins, were replacing sprung cushions all over the place. Sliding doors were a novelty, and very modern in places that hadn't had them before.

 

[yorksrob]

Thumpers were very suburban though, really. CIGs were the "outer" stuff at the time. And it was an era where things like 150s, and their electric cousins, were replacing sprung cushions all over the place. Sliding doors were a novelty, and very modern in places that hadn't had them before.

The Hastings thumpers weren't though. They had vestibules within units and a main line layout, albeit with narrower seats.

That said, I suppose the 319's were glorified 150's so it's possible. The good citizens of Hastings and Tunbridge Wells lucked out with their CEP's and CIG's, all things considered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think a 150 would have been too suburban for the main line.

I don't. 150s on suburban services were a later development. When first built they did things like three-hour TransPennine Express services. And the Hastings line is just a rural branch line, just like every other rural branch line that uses, and used, 150s.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't. 150s on suburban services were a later development. When first built they did things like three-hour TransPennine Express services. And the Hastings line is just a rural branch line, just like every other rural branch line that uses, and used, 150s.

On the contrary, the Hastings route is a main line commuter route, otherwise it wouldn't have been electrified.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the contrary, the Hastings route is a main line commuter route, otherwise it wouldn't have been electrified.

It's no more "main line commuter" than Southport-Manchester is, which has used 150s for years.

A lot of people have a very skewed impression of just how rural Sussex actually is. To be fair I had the impression the whole SE was a giant London suburb until I moved here. But it's very much not. Kent and Sussex are vastly more rural than the North West conurbation, and third rail is pretty much everywhere other than a couple of diesel islands like Uckfield, even some very quiet places with quite sparse services.

 

[yorksrob]

It's no more "main line commuter" than Southport-Manchester is, which has used 150s for years.

A lot of people have a very skewed impression of just how rural Sussex actually is. To be fair I had the impression the whole SE was a giant London suburb until I moved here. But it's very much not. Kent and Sussex are vastly more rural than the North West conurbation, and third rail is pretty much everywhere other than a couple of diesel islands like Uckfield, even some very quiet places with quite sparse services.

It's been a long time since the Southport - Manchester service justified half hourly eight carriage services. Burscough and Parbold weren't in the North Western conurbation last time I looked either

 

[mmh]

It's no more "main line commuter" than Southport-Manchester is, which has used 150s for years.

A lot of people have a very skewed impression of just how rural Sussex actually is. To be fair I had the impression the whole SE was a giant London suburb until I moved here. But it's very much not. Kent and Sussex are vastly more rural than the North West conurbation, and third rail is pretty much everywhere other than a couple of diesel islands like Uckfield, even some very quiet places with quite sparse services.

And of course 150s were used all over the place. Hull to Holyhead anyone? Back then there was very little consideration given to any "this is a mainline route" other than what are now still thought of as "intercity" routes. The only real difference in the south of England was they needed longer trains. If they'd have replaced all the mk1s at the same time we'd just have had longer versions of exactly the same trains elsewhere got.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's been a long time since the Southport - Manchester service justified half hourly eight carriage services.

Trains are generally longer in the SE but it doesn't make the feel of the lines any different. Hastings is a semi-rural branch line. In the 1980s, the train of the future for semi-rural branch lines was the Class 150.

Burscough and Parbold weren't in the North Western conurbation last time I looked either

I would consider them to be. The area I'd normally call the North West conurbation is basically a triangle formed by Liverpool, Manchester and Preston, with a few extra bits thrown in. It's an area that basically acts as one big place with a web-shaped rail and road network.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Mar 2022 ==

And of course 150s were used all over the place. Hull to Holyhead anyone? Back then there was very little consideration given to any "this is a mainline route" other than what are now still thought of as "intercity" routes. The only real difference in the south of England was they needed longer trains. If they'd have replaced all the mk1s at the same time we'd just have had longer versions of exactly the same trains elsewhere got.

Exactly. If the slamdoors had been being replaced before the Networker was a thing, you'd just have had lots of 319-a-likes, which in the end is an electric 4-car 150. Other than extremes like Weymouth which is only in "NSE" for historical reasons and isn't even close to being a London commuter run, the longest rail journey in the SE was Bedford-Brighton, and that used 319s for years.

 

[yorksrob]

Trains are generally longer in the SE but it doesn't make the feel of the lines any different. Hastings is a semi-rural branch line. In the 1980s, the train of the future for semi-rural branch lines was the Class 150.



I would consider them to be. The area I'd normally call the North West conurbation is basically a triangle formed by Liverpool, Manchester and Preston, with a few extra bits thrown in. It's an area that basically acts as one big place with a web-shaped rail and road network.

Most main lines pass through rural areas. That doesn't make them not main lines.

Also my understanding of the word "conurbation" is a continuously built up area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most main lines pass through rural areas. That doesn't make them not main lines.

Hastings is not a mainline. It is a (fairly busy) double-ended branch line. Apart from the generally higher demand in the SE it's very similar to Southport as a secondary route.

It's hardly the Marston Vale or S&C, but it is very much a secondary route. Very similar indeed to Southport.

It's also a fair way from London so won't have quite as much London commuter traffic as you might think it would.

Have you ever even been to Sussex? I don't think you have a handle on just how rural it is.

Also my understanding of the word "conurbation" is a continuously built up area.

"Functional conurbation", then. But OT for this thread.

 

[yorksrob]

Hastings is not a mainline. It is a (fairly busy) double-ended branch line. Apart from the generally higher demand in the SE it's very similar to Southport as a secondary route.

It's hardly the Marston Vale or S&C, but it is very much a secondary route. Very similar indeed to Southport.

It's also a fair way from London so won't have quite as much London commuter traffic as you might think it would.

Have you ever even been to Sussex? I don't think you have a handle on just how rural it is.



"Functional conurbation", then. But OT for this thread.

In Southern terms, it is very much a main line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In Southern terms, it is very much a main line.

It might be in historical terms, but then so was Liverpool-Ormskirk-Preston.

In the 1980s, it was very much a secondary line, as it is now.

But anyway we are going off on one. 150s were used on secondary mainlines all over the country, such as North TransPennine and the Cambrian, so there is no reason to presume they'd not be used there.

 

[D6130]

I wonder if they would have made the Hastings DEMUs soldier on until the very early 90s & we would've got an extended order for 158/159s configured for the Hastings Line?

They wouldn't have lasted that long. By the time I was working on them - and seeing them in close-up at St Leonards Depot - in the mid-1980s, both the underframes and bodies were shot. Although the engineers and fitters at West Marina did sterling work in keeping them in service for as long as they did, nearly thirty years of being regularly stabled about fifty yards from the English Channel really took their toll. The preserved unit has had to have a large amount of replacement steelwork installed.

 

[yorksrob]

They wouldn't have lasted that long. By the time I was working on them - and seeing them in close-up at St Leonards Depot - in the mid-1980s, both the underframes and bodies were shot. Although the engineers and fitters at West Marina did sterling work in keeping them in service for as long as they did, nearly thirty years of being regularly stabled about fifty yards from the English Channel really took their toll. The preserved unit has had to have a large amount of replacement steelwork installed.

Shane they didn't build the depot away from the cost near Bexhill West. Might have saved the line as well !

 

[telstarbox]

Most of the commuter demand is from Tunbridge Wells (plus Tonbridge and Sevenoaks on the main line). Without TW it's conceivable that the line would have been a self contained Tonbridge - Hastings service.

 

[bingleybong]

Here's an off-beat thought - Class 141s would fit, wouldn't they?

This was actually proposed - 141s on the stoppers with rebodied mk1s using Leyland panels hauled by the slim 33s on the fasts. The proposal didn't last long as 141s were thought unsuitable for Sussex and the 33s would have needed a complete rebuild. Once enough EMUs were seen to be available electrification actually worked out cheaper as well as much better. It did condem Tunbridge Wells - Eridge though as closing this part paid for the mailnine upgrade.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It did condem Tunbridge Wells - Eridge though as closing this part paid for the mailnine upgrade.

Thanks for that, I always found it odd that that closed. It was hardly busy, but it was probably busier than half the rural lines of the North and Wales which remain open.

FWIW I've actually once used the heritage line there as public transport!