Speculation : What could be refurbished to help Derby

[Snow1964]

The lack of new trains at Alstom Derby appears to be leading to the plant going to be mothballed (not closed). As cannot realistically give them a new train order without also giving orders to other manufacturers to stop them squealing foul. Thought what could happen at short notice.

Historically was plenty of new trains built mid 1980s until about 1994, then virtually nothing for 5 years, then when privatisation had settled down orders resumed. So we are in position with some 30+ year old trains (probably too old to justify anything more than a facelift rather than serious refurbishment), and lots of trains about 15-25 years old that might need a mid life overhaul.

We know East Midlands has just announced big refurb program (on its 170s, 360s and 158s), and Cross Country has announced refurb (and 12 ex Avanti) 220s and 221s.

Southern has its 377 fleet around mid life
South Eastern its 375 and 376 fleets close to mid life
South Western has 444, 450 fleets around mid life
C2C class 357 fleet is near mid life
Various operators have 170s (also similar 168, 171 etc)
Avanti have the 390s

Some of these have already had serious refurb, so don't need it, but what is left as possibles

Perhaps off lease 350s to battery EMUs (a sort of updated GWR class 231 idea) to release turbos to west. Or perhaps for elsewhere in country. Being speculative thread would accept ideas like take over Salisbury trains and fitted out like a 450

I will exclude the Scotrail fleet as the Westminster Government does really fund Scottish Operator

I guess there could be a few trams around UK that could be added as potential work.

Wondered what others think might be seen as a quick fix, bearing in mind there is election approaching. Maybe there isn't an economic quick fix to tie Derby over to the HS2 order, but would appreciate others views of possibilities

 

[43096]

The lack of new trains at Alstom Derby appears to be leading to the plant going to be mothballed (not closed). As cannot realistically give them a new train order without also giving orders to other manufacturers to stop them squealing foul. Thought what could happen at short notice.

Historically was plenty of new trains built mid 1980s until about 1994, then virtually nothing for 5 years, then when privatisation had settled down orders resumed. So we are in position with some 30+ year old trains (probably too old to justify anything more than a facelift rather than serious refurbishment), and lots of trains about 15-25 years old that might need a mid life overhaul.

The concept of a mid-life overhaul, like BR used to do with C1 and C2 repairs, has pretty much gone. It's part of the reason why the major works have largely disappeared - work can be done on depots, or by contractors brought in to do a specific task such as internal refit.

We know East Midlands has just announced big refurb program (on its 170s, 360s and 158s), and Cross Country has announced refurb (and 12 ex Avanti) 220s and 221s.

Southern has its 377 fleet around mid life
South Eastern its 375 and 376 fleets close to mid life
South Western has 444, 450 fleets around mid life
C2C class 357 fleet is near mid life
Various operators have 170s (also similar 168, 171 etc)
Avanti have the 390s

Some of these have already had serious refurb, so don't need it, but what is left as possibles

Perhaps off lease 350s to battery EMUs (a sort of updated GWR class 231 idea) to release turbos to west. Or perhaps for elsewhere in country. Being speculative thread would accept ideas like take over Salisbury trains and fitted out like a 450

If you were doing the battery conversion on the 350s, you wouldn't give the contract to Alstom - and certainly not to "give Derby some work" - as that increases the risk. Siemens, as the OEM, would be a far better bet to reduce the technical risk.

I will exclude the Scotrail fleet as the Westminster Government does really fund Scottish Operator

I guess there could be a few trams around UK that could be added as potential work.

Wondered what others think might be seen as a quick fix, bearing in mind there is election approaching. Maybe there isn't an economic quick fix to tie Derby over to the HS2 order, but would appreciate others views of possibilities

Derby really isn't set up for refurbishment work, it's an assembly site. Besides, Alstom also have Ilford and Widnes that don't seem to have the same deep-rooted quality control issues that Derby has.

 

[JonathanH]

What happens if there is a tender for work and Derby doesn't win it?

 

[skyhigh]

As cannot realistically give them a new train order without also giving orders to other manufacturers to stop them squealing foul.

So why can you hand out refurb work to one party without a tender? But if you issue a commercial tender, what happens if Wabtec or Brodies win?

 

[JonathanH]

Alstom are already involved in most of these fleets, indeed in overhauls and refurbishment, and aren't doing the work at Derby.

As an example

100th GTR Electrostar upgraded and back in service | Porterbrook

The project is funded by Porterbrook, with Alstom providing technical specification, design work and materials and GTR carrying out the installation and

www.porterbrook.co.uk

The 100th Class 377 Electrostar operated by Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) has completed the £100m Project Aurora upgrade programme, returning to passenger service with a host of new features that significantly improve reliability and passenger experience.

The project is funded by Porterbrook, with Alstom providing technical specification, design work and materials and GTR carrying out the installation and testing. In total, 270 trains consisting of 1086 carriages will go through Project Aurora, with the final train due to be completed in 2025.

Alstom maintain both the 357 and 390 fleets directly and are carrying out the mid life refurbishment of the 390s in Widnes.

 

[zwk500]

The lack of new trains at Alstom Derby appears to be leading to the plant going to be mothballed (not closed). As cannot realistically give them a new train order without also giving orders to other manufacturers to stop them squealing foul. Thought what could happen at short notice.

Question - why should Derby be prioritised over other manufacturers?