Speculation regarding the future of Southeastern

[Chiltern006]

I think that TfL should take over the SE metro services that dont run out of the Zones e.g VIC-ORP, CST-CRY, CST/CHX-HYS and so on

 

[ComUtoR]

I think that TfL should take over the SE metro services that dont run out of the Zones e.g VIC-ORP, CST-CRY, CST/CHX-HYS and so on

Sevenoaks <> Cross is an important link. There are plans to extend Oyster to Sevenoaks which may keep the service within the zones.

Gravesend/Rainham is also something to think about. You have Thameslink that run a metro service up from Rainham and whilst there are some who would like to see that as a mainline service what would happen to this small but significant part of the Thameslink Project™ You also have a fair amount of 'Metro' services run by SE up from Gravesend. Population density and passenger flows almost requires Gravesend to be considered 'Metro' How do you break up SE Metro from Gravesend ?

 

[bionic]

I think that TfL should take over the SE metro services that dont run out of the Zones e.g VIC-ORP, CST-CRY, CST/CHX-HYS and so on

They will take the lot. That's part of the reasons why the Gillingham metro run was binned off to GTR. TFL will have the Gravesend and Sevenoaks stoppers plus everything else in the zones.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Southeastern is one of those (like SWR and SN) whereby the Metro and MainLine are very closely linked but also where resources are shared massively. Think Readings and Hounslow Loop, Caterhams and Redhill, Orpington stoppers and Tonbridge. It’s better to keep them together.

Granted, if we do see GN ‘Outer’ taken over by LNER, it will make sense to turn the 717s over to LO for Moorgate work. Some other small bits may work elsewhere but realistically LO has now reached its peak.

 

[BluePenguin]

Sevenoaks <> Cross is an important link. There are plans to extend Oyster to Sevenoaks which may keep the service within the zones.

Gravesend/Rainham is also something to think about. You also have a fair amount of 'Metro' services run by SE up from Gravesend. Population density and passenger flows almost requires Gravesend to be considered 'Metro' How do you break up SE Metro from Gravesend?

You make some good points. Oyster to Sevenoaks is long over due.

Gravesend certainly is a Metro station but could be broken up by having metro services start closer to London and have the mainline services call instead. Orpington is similar and does have a few mainline services stopping there at times. The HS service in a way already does this.

However, I’m sure people would be very disappointed that they cannot get to London via one of the many possible routes they can currently, if the mainline Southeastern or Thameslink was delayed or cancelled

One of the main benefits of training starting and terminating at Gravesend in Metro fashion is that they are not subject to delays from elsewhere. They are self contained. Making it a proper mainline station will then depend on the trains travelling to and from destinations much further along the line and possibly subjecting them to disruption and delays......LNR ring any bells?

 

[ComUtoR]

Gravesend certainly is a Metro station but could be broken up by having metro services start closer to London and have the mainline services call instead. Orpington is similar and does have a few mainline services stopping there at times. The HS service in a way already does this.

Gravesend and the Medway towns may lose their HS services...

 

[NorthKent1989]

Gravesend and the Medway towns may lose their HS services...

Really???

How come? I though HS services were set to stay along Medway and Gravesend?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Really???

How come? I though HS services were set to stay along Medway and Gravesend?

Well this is something totally dependent on whether or not capacity exists in St Pancras and along the High Speed Route for both the Medway and the Ashford / East Kent stuff. Realistically, with stock at a premium and capacity pretty much maxed out you may have to decide to just do the Ashford bit (Folkestone, Dover, Canterbury etc) and then run a few extra classic trains to Victoria, Blackfriars, Cannon Street (wherever) from Medway.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well this is something totally dependent on whether or not capacity exists in St Pancras and along the High Speed Route for both the Medway and the Ashford / East Kent stuff. Realistically, with stock at a premium and capacity pretty much maxed out you may have to decide to just do the Ashford bit (Folkestone, Dover, Canterbury etc) and then run a few extra classic trains to Victoria, Blackfriars, Cannon Street (wherever) from Medway.

Well I’m sure the return of the faster Classic Mainline services will be most welcome.

 

[brad465]

Well this is something totally dependent on whether or not capacity exists in St Pancras and along the High Speed Route for both the Medway and the Ashford / East Kent stuff. Realistically, with stock at a premium and capacity pretty much maxed out you may have to decide to just do the Ashford bit (Folkestone, Dover, Canterbury etc) and then run a few extra classic trains to Victoria, Blackfriars, Cannon Street (wherever) from Medway.

The extra fast classic trains suggested would mitigate HS service removal from the Medway towns and beyond, but the likes of Gravesend, Strood (and possibly Maidstone) would be harder hit as the said classic services won't serve them. Of course if proposals to link Northfleet and Ebbsfleet in the Garden City development are completed eventually then maybe that won't be so bad. However from what I can tell that's a long way off (The HS1 connection to Gravesend might also need a Parlimentary service if nothing else uses it).

It's also worth pointing out that a sizeable portion of HS usage is people driving halfway across Kent to Ebbsfleet to go into London; I know people in my office who do it occasionally and have seen it more widely when using the station. If classic line services can be improved in speed and capacity you could reduce the demand on HS services

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The extra fast classic trains suggested would mitigate HS service removal from the Medway towns and beyond, but the likes of Gravesend, Strood (and possibly Maidstone) would be harder hit as the said classic services won't serve them. Of course if proposals to link Northfleet and Ebbsfleet in the Garden City development are completed eventually then maybe that won't be so bad. However from what I can tell that's a long way off (The HS1 connection to Gravesend might also need a Parlimentary service if nothing else uses it).

It's also worth pointing out that a sizeable portion of HS usage is people driving halfway across Kent to Ebbsfleet to go into London; I know people in my office who do it occasionally and have seen it more widely when using the station. If classic line services can be improved in speed and capacity you could reduce the demand on HS services

With a reasonable chance of a Maidstone West - Gravesend - Abbey Wood - Woolwich - London peak service, that’s 3 trains gone at peak time into St Pancras.

What I foresee is a an increase in capacity on existing Ashford-centric trains, and a few Ebbsfleet starters from the high level. Off-peak services to places like Faversham will probably survive.