Speculation regarding East Midlands Franchise 2019:

[VT 390]

My idea/speculation:

- Cascaded new-ish EMU's for Corby services.
- Fancy new bi-modes for the inter-city services.
- 222's cascaded to XC for strengthening and to run Cardiff/Nottingham and Birmingham-Stansted services.
- In return XC 170's all go to EMT to strengthen or improve local services along with the 158's released by the transfer of Liverpool-Nottingham to TP.
- HST's all scrapped or retired.

Good idea but I would keep 170's on Leicester/Stansted XC services in 4 carriage formations with the 3 carriage units moving to EMT, possibly along with the 3 carriage WMR units.

 

[43074]

222s would be rubbish on the Stansted runs, the existing 170s are perfect except for the lack of capacity - which a 222 doesn't solve anyway as a 5-car 222 wouldn't fit in the Stansted bay platform and a 4-car 222 would have fewer seats than a 3-car 170. Plus the 1/3 and 2/3 door layout of the 170s is fine as they have high passenger turnover at Leicester, Peterborough & Cambridge in particular. 4-car 170s or equivalent would be perfect.

Transferring 222s for the Voyager routes makes some degree of sense at least being similar units to the 220/221 sets, but would probably result in lots of double Voyagers running around meaning you need 2 TMs and catering crews for each service, which is wasteful and costly. The best option would be a new fleet of bi-mode high speed (i.e. 802s and the like) units to replace all 22x and HST units on both XC and the MML.

 

[Killingworth]

170s would be grand for Liverpool-Nottingham, their 2 and 3 car configuration fine for splitting off the Norwich section. However they wouldn't suit the franchise commitment to have on-board refreshments throughout the train without employing two catering units. (Currently only normally offered on 158s Liverpool-Peterborough if able to get through the crush.) Those trains will soon need need strengthening to 6 carriages from Liverpool - Sheffield at peak periods if current growth in demand continues. Certainly if 3 fast trains an hour can't soon be introduced down the Hope Valley.

 

[gingertom]

With those troublesome electrics on the roof I'd want less, not more, voyagers on XC to the south west.

 

[NoOnesFool]

With those troublesome electrics on the roof I'd want less, not more, voyagers on XC to the south west.

Even with the sea wall issues, Voyagers and Meridians are one of the most reliable fleets on the network.

 

[700007]

If this is a suggestions thread, then may I suggest a new 2tpd weekdays and 1tpd return weekend service, one during the peak and one off peak between Hinckley / Nuneaton and London calling at Narborough, Market Harborough, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford and London St. Pancras.

For example the first train arrives in London by 0800, then an off peak service forms at around 1100 to go Hinckley, then a return service from Hinckley at around 1530 for the off peak market, and the evening peak service to leave London at 1830?

I reckon there would be a good market for this if the journey times and prices were made competitive? Hinckley and Narborough are both somewhat sizeable towns without a London service and it would add capacity and provide connectivity between local destinations in the East Midlands.

A 4-car or 5-car 222 would probably suffice for this.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Could there be benefits for extending the one of the Sheffield-London Services to Leeds? While I understand there is no case for a London-Leeds Via MML it could have benefits by providing Leicester and East Midlands Parkway with regular services to Leeds.

I would like to see in the next franchise:

• Regular hourly services between Liverpool and Leicester
• Extension of 1 Sheffield-London services to Leeds providing a regular service between Leicester and Leeds
• Extension of Lincoln to Nottingham Services to Grimsby Town as promised in the ITT
• 2 trains per hour between Corby and London
• Regular hourly services between Manchester Piccadilly and Leicester
• Reintroduce Direct London-Barnsley Services
• Hourly services between Doncaster-Peterborough via Lincoln (potentially extending to Leeds Via Askern

 

[Jozhua]

Could there be benefits for extending the one of the Sheffield-London Services to Leeds? While I understand there is no case for a London-Leeds Via MML it could have benefits by providing Leicester and East Midlands Parkway with regular services to Leeds.

I would like to see in the next franchise:

• Regular hourly services between Liverpool and Leicester
• Extension of 1 Sheffield-London services to Leeds providing a regular service between Leicester and Leeds
• Extension of Lincoln to Nottingham Services to Grimsby Town as promised in the ITT
• 2 trains per hour between Corby and London
• Regular hourly services between Manchester Piccadilly and Leicester
• Reintroduce Direct London-Barnsley Services
• Hourly services between Doncaster-Peterborough via Lincoln (potentially extending to Leeds Via Askern

Perhaps the London stopper to Leeds? It does run up that way sometimes on a Sunday anyway! Would give Leicester, Derby, Long Eaton, Loughborough a direct connection to Leeds and an extra service an hour to Chesterfield and Sheffield.

I would be very pro a direct route from Manchester to Leicester as I travel between Manchester and Long Eaton frequently and the journey ends up being very lengthy, having to treck up to Sheffield and down again each time.

Apparently Sheffield Council wants both the new fast routes to come Sheffield way, disregarding the fact the Hope Valley Line barely runs through their county and the fact their station has no capacity...

 

[edwin_m]

The priority is to improve the Manchester-Sheffield service, which is far worse in frequency and journey time than Manchester-Leeds, so it's unlikely an extra Hope Valley path would miss Sheffield.

Extending the London-Sheffield service to Leeds would have some benefits but it would cut across franchise boundaries, as there isn't capacity to add extra services so it would probably have to replace the Northern Connect via Barnsley, which is supposed to go to Lincoln instead.

 

[Jozhua]

The priority is to improve the Manchester-Sheffield service, which is far worse in frequency and journey time than Manchester-Leeds, so it's unlikely an extra Hope Valley path would miss Sheffield.

From what I heard there are going to be two more fast paths to Sheffield after the Hope Valley upgrade. If so, one more should definitely go to Sheffield, but I think its reasonable for a faster service to connect Derby, Nottingham and Leicester after that!

 

[yorksrob]

Another day, another flawless, comfortable journey on EMT's 158's across the Pennines.

This route really needs to stay with this franchise IMO.

 

[Killingworth]

From what I heard there are going to be two more fast paths to Sheffield after the Hope Valley upgrade. If so, one more should definitely go to Sheffield, but I think its reasonable for a faster service to connect Derby, Nottingham and Leicester after that!

There is only going to be one extra fast path an hour after the Hope Valley Capacity Improvement Scheme is completed, at earliest by December 2021. It should be possible to ensure an hourly reliable stopping service is provided for all Hope Valley stations

At present stopping trains every hour can't stop at all stations or to a clock face timetable. Fast services will have difficulty coping with demand by 2021 even with additional coaches - which may not fit in platforms currently avaliable.

Some would question if there is line and platform capacity for any more services through Manchester, even for one extra Hope Valley service. The original HVCIS called for 2 extra fast trains per hour. My understanding is that the extra passing loop at Chinley was withdrawn because there weren't likely to be enough paths into Piccadilly in the foreseeable future. Subsequent events prove that without Platforms 15 and 16 and congestion around Stockport that is true.

 

[Killingworth]

Another day, another flawless, comfortable journey on EMT's 158's across the Pennines.

This route really needs to stay with this franchise IMO.

Personally I prefer a relatively relaxed 4 coach 158 than a packed 185. In the morning I can usually get a cheaper East Midlands fare too. Strangely, it sometimes appears that no seats are bookable on EM, which throws people to booking a seat on TPE, only to find they can't even get to the seat through the crush!

Whoever runs the new franchise please keep 4 coach 158s, and if they can be made up to 6 from Liverpool to Sheffield so much the better.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I prefer a relatively relaxed 4 coach 158 than a packed 185. In the morning the morning I can usually get a cheaper East Midlands fare too. Strangely, it sometimes appears that no seats are bookable on EM, which throws people to booking a seat on TPE, only to find they can't even get to the seat through the crush!

Whoever runs the new franchise please keep 4 coach 158s, and if they can be made up to 6 from Liverpool to Sheffield so much the better.

Amen to that.

There were some reservation labels on seats on my train, but nowhere near enough to be a nuisance.

 

[_toommm_]

Personally I prefer a relatively relaxed 4 coach 158 than a packed 185. In the morning the morning I can usually get a cheaper East Midlands fare too. Strangely, it sometimes appears that no seats are bookable on EM, which throws people to booking a seat on TPE, only to find they can't even get to the seat through the crush!

Whoever runs the new franchise please keep 4 coach 158s, and if they can be made up to 6 from Liverpool to Sheffield so much the better.

Transpennine do seem to have the cheaper advances IME, even when booked a day before. I can regularly find my £2.50 fare with all my discounts even a day before travel, and it can be found at reasonable times too (I think this is a £5/6 fare discounts removed). This may be why they're busier too.

 

[yorksrob]

Transpennine do seem to have the cheaper advances IME, even when booked a day before. I can regularly find my £2.50 fare with all my discounts even a day before travel, and it can be found at reasonable times too (I think this is a £5/6 fare discounts removed). This may be why they're busier too.

I do find AP too much of a faff for short journeys such as Sheffield - Manchester. Still, if it helps to keep my train reasonably uncrowded, I'm all for it.

 

[Killingworth]

It seems TPE need to run longer trains, but a jump from 3 to 6 coaches may be too many for a lot of services (especially east of Doncaster), and also create platform capacity issues at both Manchester Airport and Piccadilly.

Now if TPE were running 158s they'd have a significant increase in capacity (but lose 1st class) and with 4 coaches they'd fit limited platforms better.

Taking the 185s for Liverpool - Nottingham at 6 coaches would provide an inter-city 1st class service and be much better running through 13 and 14 at Piccadilly.

It couldn't happen. I'll go back to sleep.

 

[_toommm_]

It seems TPE need to run longer trains, but a jump from 3 to 6 coaches may be too many for a lot of services (especially east of Doncaster), and also create platform capacity issues at both Manchester Airport and Piccadilly.

Now if TPE were running 158s they'd have a significant increase in capacity (but lose 1st class) and with 4 coaches they'd fit limited platforms better.

Taking the 185s for Liverpool - Nottingham at 6 coaches would provide an inter-city 1st class service and be much better running through 13 and 14 at Piccadilly.

It couldn't happen. I'll go back to sleep.

I was going to say we could split the trains at Doncaster, but that would be rather difficult due to tight timings and lack of platforms that can go onto the Thorne lines at Doncaster and on to Sheffield.

Perhaps split at Sheffield, and make use of the through roads that only seem to get regular use on a Sunday?

 

[Killingworth]

I was going to say we could split the trains at Doncaster, but that would be rather difficult due to tight timings and lack of platforms that can go onto the Thorne lines at Doncaster and on to Sheffield.

Perhaps split at Sheffield, and make use of the through roads that only seem to get regular use on a Sunday?

The through roads could be the key to increasing capacity at Sheffield by being brought into a better use of the A and B aspect of Platforms 2, 5 and 6. I think that might require some new crossovers, signalling and fettling up of track for passenger services?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

It seems TPE need to run longer trains, but a jump from 3 to 6 coaches may be too many for a lot of services (especially east of Doncaster), and also create platform capacity issues at both Manchester Airport and Piccadilly.

Now if TPE were running 158s they'd have a significant increase in capacity (but lose 1st class) and with 4 coaches they'd fit limited platforms better.

Taking the 185s for Liverpool - Nottingham at 6 coaches would provide an inter-city 1st class service and be much better running through 13 and 14 at Piccadilly.

It couldn't happen. I'll go back to sleep.

You do realise that the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport sometimes runs as 6 coaches (i.e 2x 3-car 185).

 

[Killingworth]

You do realise that the Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport sometimes runs as 6 coaches (i.e 2x 3-car 185).

Certainly does, and has been doing for at least a couple of years. In fact even 6 coaches can be full for the 7.09 out of Sheffield, especially from Dore where it picks up 100. They were almost all going to be made up to 6 from late 2018 once stock had been released after Nova trains are introduced.

However there may be platform congestion issues with that both at Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. It remains to be seen how 6 coaches will fit after May, but currently it looks like being a very tight fit.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Certainly does, and has been doing for at least a couple of years. In fact even 6 coaches can be full for the 7.09 out of Sheffield, especially from Dore where it picks up 100. They were almost all going to be made up to 6 from late 2018 once stock had been released after Nova trains are introduced.

However there may be platform congestion issues with that both at Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. It remains to be seen how 6 coaches will fit after May, but currently it looks like being a very tight fit.

Wait will they all be 6 coaches on the South TransPennine route in the future.

EDIT:

Do you mean from Late 2019?

 

[Killingworth]

Wait will they all be 6 coaches on the South TransPennine route in the future.

EDIT:

Do you mean from Late 2019?

No, it was originally hoped the new stock would gradually be coming available from late 2018. That has proved over optimistic. It does now seem more likely to be later in 2019 but platform capacity is an issue to be resolved.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

No, it was originally hoped the new stock would gradually be coming available from late 2018. That has proved over optimistic. It does now seem more likely to be later in 2019 but platform capacity is an issue to be resolved.

So there not going to be more 6 coach trains on the South Transpennine route, shame. Back to the EM Franchise, I am quiet excited about the idea of a 13 direct Nottingham-Grimsby services per day from December 2021 and the promise of hourly services between Lincoln and Grimsby which has been promised in the ITT. I hope they provide longer trains for these services instead of a two-coaches they provide on a 153.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Certainly does, and has been doing for at least a couple of years. In fact even 6 coaches can be full for the 7.09 out of Sheffield, especially from Dore where it picks up 100. They were almost all going to be made up to 6 from late 2018 once stock had been released after Nova trains are introduced.

However there may be platform congestion issues with that both at Piccadilly and Manchester Airport. It remains to be seen how 6 coaches will fit after May, but currently it looks like being a very tight fit.

Too many tables. Add more airline seating and job's a goodun.

 

[Elecman]

Did I jus5 hear that Abbellio have just won EST Mids franchise? I thought the franchise had been postponed pending the Williams review?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Did I jus5 hear that Abbellio have just won EST Mids franchise? I thought the franchise had been postponed pending the Williams review?

That was the CrossCountry Franchise that had been postponed. Abellio has won the East Midlands Franchise. Details should be announced in the next 10 days.

 

[Jozhua]

That was the CrossCountry Franchise that had been postponed. Abellio has won the East Midlands Franchise. Details should be announced in the next 10 days.

Apparently bi-mode and hydrogen trains will be being used and it seems like they plan to replace the whole suburban fleet?

Could 230's be in store?

 

[adrock1976]

Apparently bi-mode and hydrogen trains will be being used and it seems like they plan to replace the whole suburban fleet?

Could 230's be in store?

2 or 3 would be handy for the Cleethorpes - Barton on Humber services when that eventually transfers from Northern to East Midlands.

Also some more that could be specially dedicated to Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse/Worksop as I believe it is a low linespeed?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Apparently bi-mode and hydrogen trains will be being used and it seems like they plan to replace the whole suburban fleet?

Could 230's be in store?

I like 230’s but I think more decent stock than that would be appreciated on regional routes. Let’s wait and see.