Speculation regarding Class 379 future

[Elshad]

Except 1st Class is due to be abolished on Stansted Express.

Ah ok, fair enough. I don't mind to be honest. Either have a proper first class or don't bother.

 

[Ianno87]

Is it correct that Stansted Express can't charge a premium fare a la Gatwick and Heathrow because its the only train from London going there? If they wanted to run non stop with premium fares then there would have to be plenty of other normal fare trains there in addition? Slightly off topic but I heard there is great desire to run Stanex 24 hours, does anyone know anything about that? Might be better in a separate thread though.

There isn't the capacity on the West Anglia Main Line to have a dedicated express service and still give Harlow and Bishop's Stortford a decent fast service too.

That and the Coach competition is more relevant at Stansted (compared to Gatwick)... it is reasomably competitive on journey time, especially factoring in that the typical end destination of a Stansted flyer is not Tottenham Hale or Liverpool Street.

 

[RailWonderer]

These are PRM compliant as said in Modern Rail it makes no sense to replace them with 745s before non-compliant stock has gone. Once all the new stock is in service, the 379s can be replaced by 745s as per the bid team plan, however delayed it will be. In the short term there's a good chance we might see 745s on other non-IC services on the GEML but not the branches (driver/crew reasons).

 

[MrPIC]

Yes but the plan as I see it is to have 745's displace 379's in order to start sending non compliant and frankly dead 317's off to be scrapped. I know I've got personal doubts about 745's operating on the West, but I do think actually, with everything taken into account, it makes most sense for the plan to work as previously mentioned. Might be nice for the GE people to have fancy 745's on express GEML non IC services but in reality the 317's are barely being kept alive, the people of Cambridge etc could also do with modern trains on most of their services too until the 720's arrive. I don't really ever use the WAML but it could really do with a bit of investment to make it competitive with the GN for people from Cambridge.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes but the plan as I see it is to have 745's displace 379's in order to start sending non compliant and frankly dead 317's off to be scrapped. I know I've got personal doubts about 745's operating on the West, but I do think actually, with everything taken into account, it makes most sense for the plan to work as previously mentioned. Might be nice for the GE people to have fancy 745's on express GEML non IC services but in reality the 317's are barely being kept alive, the people of Cambridge etc could also do with modern trains on most of their services too until the 720's arrive. I don't really ever use the WAML but it could really do with a bit of investment to make it competitive with the GN for people from Cambridge.

Didn't we establish though that 745s, being 240m length, wouldn't fit in the platforms at the stations served by 317s? This would be a problem for the 720/1s too, but not single 5-car 720s

 

[MrPIC]

That's what the ASDO is for, there's work needed O believe at some stations to enable asdo front, but as for Stansted express unless stopped out of course all stations served are 12 coaches long.

 

[Scottychoo]

Yes but the plan as I see it is to have 745's displace 379's in order to start sending non compliant and frankly dead 317's off to be scrapped. I know I've got personal doubts about 745's operating on the West, but I do think actually, with everything taken into account, it makes most sense for the plan to work as previously mentioned. Might be nice for the GE people to have fancy 745's on express GEML non IC services but in reality the 317's are barely being kept alive, the people of Cambridge etc could also do with modern trains on most of their services too until the 720's arrive. I don't really ever use the WAML but it could really do with a bit of investment to make it competitive with the GN for people from Cambridge.

The 317s are having a PRM extension so they won't be going to the scrapman until the 720s arrive.

 

[MrPIC]

I think it must have been a question of, do we PRM mod Mk3's or 317's. Must have been financially better to mod 317's, which I can see, thus resulting in Mk3's going before 379's

 

[samuelmorris]

I think it must have been a question of, do we PRM mod Mk3's or 317's. Must have been financially better to mod 317's, which I can see, thus resulting in Mk3's going before 379's

Definitely as I don't think the MK3s can be PRM without fitting power doors can they? A lot simpler to change some door modules than replace the entire door and mechanism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it must have been a question of, do we PRM mod Mk3's or 317's. Must have been financially better to mod 317's, which I can see, thus resulting in Mk3's going before 379's

That rather depends whether what you need is a suburban EMU or a long-distance locomotive hauled coach. There isn't a lot of overlap between the two. That said, there'll be enough power-door Mk4s available that there would be no point modding Mk3s.

 

[samuelmorris]

That rather depends whether what you need is a suburban EMU or a long-distance locomotive hauled coach. There isn't a lot of overlap between the two. That said, there'll be enough power-door Mk4s available that there would be no point modding Mk3s.

You say that but both 317s and LHCS have worked to Norwich, have they not? Not that the former should be used, but the only long-distance inter-city service we have on our franchise is a bit of a grey area whether it should be considered one anyway.

As for Mk4s, would they work with anything other than 91s at this point?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You say that but both 317s and LHCS have worked to Norwich, have they not? Not that the former should be used, but the only long-distance inter-city service we have on our franchise is a bit of a grey area whether it should be considered one anyway.

This is a fair point, and indeed something like Class 350/1 would be entirely suitable for it, or indeed (to get back on topic) 379s - similar routes south of the Thames use other types of Electrostar which are fine for that use, and I suppose if you take away the short vehicles that the FLIRTS are a bit "fancy suburban EMU" esque anyway. But 317s are more suburban in feel than either of those.

 

[Aictos]

As for Mk4s, would they work with anything other than 91s at this point?

They can and have worked with Class 90s in the past indeed LNER was using them this year to cover for unavailability of Class 91s.

 

[MrPIC]

It seems GA, and clearly the stakeholders in Norfolk and Suffolk are keen to keep the "Intercity" feel, even though it probably these days isn't. I certainly wouldn't want to sit on a 317 all the way to Norwich, but having said that, its about 90 mins or so to Cambridge and thats mostly 317's. I think its good to keep the "express" and "premium" feel to some services, and if GA are willing to shell out for this then all the better!

 

[dazzler]

As for Mk4s, would they work with anything other than 91s at this point?

The Mk4s have been operating quite happily on the Leeds services with hired in DB Cargo Class 90s for many years. The hire was only ended when sufficient Azumi were introduced to make them surplus to requirements. I am led to believe that there is no material difference between the TDM on the WCML (Classes 86, 87 and 90 with Mk3 coaches - now on the Great Eastern Mainline) and the ECML (Classes 90 and 91 with Mk4 coaches), but I am prepared to be proven wrong there.

(TDM - Time Division Multiplex;
WCML - West Coast Mainline;
ECML - East Coast Mainline)

 

[Goldfish62]

Definitely as I don't think the MK3s can be PRM without fitting power doors can they? A lot simpler to change some door modules than replace the entire door and mechanism.

PRM doesn't require power doors. It's things like a PIS and space for disabled access that are required.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Can I just get this right (as it's news to me) GA have ordered 10 trains that aren't within gauge for the specific route they were intended?

If so that's got to be one of the biggest Railway Blunders in memory.

"If you think it's expensive to hire someone with experience to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." comes to mind.

Guess that's what happens when none of the bid management team had any experience of similar projects, the Initial Engineering Director had never worked in the railway industry before taking his job with GA and the operations team were allegedly frozen out of the decision making.

 

[Energy]

If the 379s don't remain with GA I can see th going to GWR, hopefully Vivarail figure out batteries and can install them on these as the 769s look less likely to come and GWR need to be able to cascade turbos to help replace ageing trains.

 

[samuelmorris]

PRM doesn't require power doors. It's things like a PIS and space for disabled access that are required.

Interesting - it isn't considered a problem that a partially disabled passenger can't operate the door then?

 

[43096]

If the 379s don't remain with GA I can see th going to GWR, hopefully Vivarail figure out batteries and can install them on these as the 769s look less likely to come and GWR need to be able to cascade turbos to help replace ageing trains.

What have Vivarail got to do with 379s? And why do so many people think batteries are the answer to everything?

 

[hwl]

What have Vivarail got to do with 379s? And why do so many people think batteries are the answer to everything?

Vivarail used the 2nd hand batteries from the 379013 trial initially...

Except it would be Bombardier doing all the work in this case.

 

[jon0844]

What have Vivarail got to do with 379s? And why do so many people think batteries are the answer to everything?

In the future, they probably are the answer to an awful lot. Battery longevity and faster charging are of course work in progress, but it brings huge opportunity to the railway industry. Imagine having fewer, or even no, wires and the reduced maintenance.

I hope trials and experiments continue even if we've got a way to go yet.

 

[Meerkat]

What is the comparison of losses on batteries vs OHLE?
I just can’t get comfortable with what batteries are made from, where it comes from, and what happens to that stuff after.
It’s also a lot of weight to lug about.

 

[Energy]

What have Vivarail got to do with 379s? And why do so many people think batteries are the answer to everything?

Vivarail currently offer batteries on the 230s so my thinking was that maybe they could fit them on the 379s so they could be used on Reading to Gatwick services. Bombardier do offer batteries on the talent and apparently could offer them on the Aventra so they could do it.

Batteries aren't the answer to everything but in this case some parts of the route (assuming its taking the North Downs Line, sorry if I'm looking a the wrong line) have 3rd rail electrification, with how far battery tech has evolved with range and charging it could make sense to use batteries.

I also think they will leave GA instead of the theories about them staying, the high leasing costs mean that it is probably cheaper to lease more new 745s than to carry on with the 379s, same situation as with the 350/2s with too high leasing costs making them leave despite not being too old.

 

[Goldfish62]

Interesting - it isn't considered a problem that a partially disabled passenger can't operate the door then?

No idea.

 

[Goldfish62]

If the 379s don't remain with GA I can see th going to GWR, hopefully Vivarail figure out batteries and can install them on these as the 769s look less likely to come and GWR need to be able to cascade turbos to help replace ageing trains.

Southern also need a fleet of battery Electrostars by Dec 2021 to replace their 171s which are moving to EMR, according to Modern Railways.

 

[Energy]

Southern also need a fleet of battery Electrostars by Dec 2021 to replace their 171s which are moving to EMR, according to Modern Railways.

I think we will see, the 350/2s are available and if I remember correctly southern borrowed some from London Midland for some time, they may not be electrostars but they are very reliable emus which porterbrook are proposing adding batteries to

 

[samuelmorris]

I think we will see, the 350/2s are available and if I remember correctly southern borrowed some from London Midland for some time, they may not be electrostars but they are very reliable emus which porterbrook are proposing adding batteries to

Doesn't necessarily mean the conversion will be reliable though - at the risk of being a bit facetious, D-stock were pretty reliable before they were turned into 230s.

 

[Energy]

Doesn't necessarily mean the conversion will be reliable though - at the risk of being a bit facetious, D-stock were pretty reliable before they were turned into 230s.

How reliable was the 379 IPEMU? I'm interested how reliable the 769 will be, I'm thinking it will be unreliable by its status right now.

 

[Goldfish62]

Doesn't necessarily mean the conversion will be reliable though - at the risk of being a bit facetious, D-stock were pretty reliable before they were turned into 230s.

But aren't the reliability issues with the 230 associated with the diesel engines? Battery electric units wouldn't have these.