Speculation- New TPE routes or extensions?

[Yorkshire09876]

I highly doubt that TPE will be taking on any more routes/destinations until the new stock comes in 5/10 years to displace the 185s.

There's a fairly strong chance that 'TPE' won't exist in five to ten years' time!

 

[aron2smith]

There's a fairly strong chance that 'TPE' won't exist in five to ten years' time!

Hopefully they'll just create one Intercity brand and most of TPE's routes would be part of it. Makes sense when the upgrade is finished.

 

[liamf656]

Hi there. I’ve just watched a video from Brian Bancroft where he’s said there’s rumours/possibilities that TPE may be getting route extensions and or new routes. Does anyone know what these would be?

Back to the original question, I highly doubt TPE have any plans to extend their operating area. I wouldn't trust what that man has to say anyway unfortunately so take it with a bucket full of salt

 

[lrbvoyager]

Back to the original question, I highly doubt TPE have any plans to extend their operating area. I wouldn't trust what that man has to say anyway unfortunately so take it with a bucket full of salt

I wasn’t really sure, hence why I made this thread! Thank you for your advice, I agree!

 

[Grumpy]

Isn't the current Scarborough situation due to the ongoing works on the route through Huddersfield (and between Leeds & York) rather than TPE being incapable of operating?

As for the oft-mooted idea of a Blackpool to Scarborough service, is there really a huge amount of demand for this? Or is it just nostalgia for the 1990s or a romantic notion of linking the prime resort towns on each coast?

The suggestion is not that there is any significant demand for Blackpool to Scarborough journeys. The point is that the present Blackpool to York service passes through the major centres in West Yorkshire and whilst dropping off passengers from Blackpool at these centres could be picking up passengers for Scarborough.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The suggestion is not that there is any significant demand for Blackpool to Scarborough journeys. The point is that the present Blackpool to York service passes through the major centres in West Yorkshire and whilst dropping off passengers from Blackpool at these centres could be picking up passengers for Scarborough.

On that basis, you could say the same about any of the services through West Yorkshire. Any one of the other Calder Valley via Bradford services could fulfill that role just as well, but for some reason it is always the Blackpool that gets mooted.
To be honest it's York that's the problem anyway. I wouldn't advocate completely axing the through Trans-Pennine service to Scarborough, but the York to Scarborough section is noticeably more reliable when it runs as a simple shuttle. If ever the proposed second hourly service on the route materialises I'd definitely advocate that service operating as a shuttle from the bay platform at York.

 

[Grumpy]

On that basis, you could say the same about any of the services through West Yorkshire. Any one of the other Calder Valley via Bradford services could fulfill that role just as well, but for some reason it is always the Blackpool that gets mooted.

Indeed, but they either terminate in Leeds or provide a through service to somewhere else (e.g. Hull). The Blackpool trains already run through to York, well on the way to Scarborough, so it would be barmy extending one of the others. That's why it gets mooted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2025 ==

the York to Scarborough section is noticeably more reliable when it runs as a simple shuttle. If ever the proposed second hourly service on the route materialises I'd definitely advocate that service operating as a shuttle from the bay platform at York.

So on that logic you'd split the Manchester-Blackpool trains at Preston, or Sheffield Hull trains at Doncaster etc etc.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So on that logic you'd split the Manchester-Blackpool trains at Preston, or Sheffield Hull trains at Doncaster etc etc.

I literally said I wouldn't split the existing service. I just wouldn't add a second service that had to do the awkward shift over to the Scarborough lines at York each hour. The corresponding junctions at Preston (for Blackpool) and Doncaster (for Hull) aren't as problematic as the junction for Scarborough at York. At Preston there's a whole island (platforms 1 & 2) to keep most Blackpool trains away from the "main" WCML platforms.

 

[RedKing]

Hi there. I’ve just watched a video from Brian Bancroft where he’s said there’s rumours/possibilities that TPE may be getting route extensions and or new routes. Does anyone know what these would be?

No rumours/possibilities outside of this thread - no idea where he's got that idea from.

Didn’t TP run a 185 over the Settle Carlisle fairly recently? Could that be a clue…

They did and no, it is not a clue.

Never mind new routes or extensions, they should contract until they reach a size their managers can manage.
They now don't provide a direct service between Scarborough and West Yorkshire, probably it's biggest source of visitors. Scarborough-York should be passed over to Northern and operated as a through service from West Yorkshire e.g. as an extension of Blackpool-Yorks.

Hourly service between Scarborough and Manchester Victoria (which does, indeed, run via West Yorkshire). 76 minutes or thereabouts, direct.

 

[Some guy]

There should definitely another TPE route from Liverpool to Edinburgh via the west coast mainline

 

[lrbvoyager]

There should definitely another TPE route from Liverpool to Edinburgh via the west coast mainline

I agree

 

[Manutd1999]

Paths on the WCML are likely to be the limit. Could they run some Manchester services as double sets, with one portion splitting at Preston for Liverpool?

 

[The Planner]

Paths on the WCML are likely to be the limit. Could they run some Manchester services as double sets, with one portion splitting at Preston for Liverpool?

That would be just as problematic, Preston down towards Euxton is as difficult as not running down freight on the north end.

 

[Zomboid]

I doubt it'd ever happen, but is Wigan credible for splitting & joining? Manchester trains could even still serve Bolton now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt it'd ever happen, but is Wigan credible for splitting & joining?

Preston and Crewe are better as they have the platforms. Wigan doesn't really have enough.

 

[quantinghome]

Ultimately the question is whether there are major population centres which currently don't have an intercity service that would cross the Pennines. The only area I can think of is East Lancs/Preston/Blackpool i.e. the current Blackpool-York service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately the question is whether there are major population centres which currently don't have an intercity service that would cross the Pennines. The only area I can think of is East Lancs/Preston/Blackpool i.e. the current Blackpool-York service.

When new stock arrives for North TPE the 185s will probably still have ten years in them, so the idea that they might go onto routes like this isn't at all far fetched. If nothing else it'd mean the freed up 195s could go somewhere like Harrogate - the 170s would be old by then and are incredibly fuel inefficient on local stopping services as they never make it into direct drive mode.

 

[Class83]

There should definitely another TPE route from Liverpool to Edinburgh via the west coast mainline

Paths on the WCML are likely to be the limit. Could they run some Manchester services as double sets, with one portion splitting at Preston for Liverpool?

This is the most obvious additional service they could offer, in terms of Paths, the Liverpool to Glasgow service currently runs every 4 hours, if the Edinburgh service was offset by 1 or 3 hours (to avoid clashing with the Manchester to Edinburgh service at the Edinburgh end) would the same path on the WCML between Wigan and Carstairs not likely exist each hour? E.g Glasgow services depart Liverpool at 08XX, 12XX, 16XX. Edinburgh services could depart at 09XX, 13XX, 17XX.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When new stock arrives for North TPE the 185s will probably still have ten years in them, so the idea that they might go onto routes like this isn't at all far fetched. If nothing else it'd mean the freed up 195s could go somewhere like Harrogate - the 170s would be old by then and are incredibly fuel inefficient on local stopping services as they never make it into direct drive mode.

I thought that supposed issue with 170s had been, if not outright debunked, at least quashed somewhat by people "in the know"?
In any case even if they're damagingly inefficient at lower speeds, they're no worse than running 185s on routes they aren't suitable for due to their weight.

Once GBR is properly established, there may or may not be a business unit that consists of TPE plus the "Regional Express" bits of Northern. 185s may be suitable for some of those routes, but due to their specifications they can't simply be cascaded down without an impact on costs above and beyond the cost of crew training.

For Liverpool to Edinburgh, I'd like to see the promised hourly service via Leeds come back. This needn't be an "either/or" with a Liverpool via Preston service though

 

[stevieinselby]

For Liverpool to Edinburgh, I'd like to see the promised hourly service via Leeds come back.

Why?
The current one-a-day-in-one-direction service from Edinburgh to Liverpool via Leeds takes nearly 5 hours.
The journey can currently be made with a change at Preston in 3½ hours – or based on current TPX timings a through journey via Carlisle would take 3¾ hours, more than an hour quicker than the route via Leeds would be.
If there is genuine demand for direct services between Liverpool/Manchester and Edinburgh then beef up the service via Carlisle rather than send people the long way round.

 

[A S Leib]

If there is genuine demand for direct services between Liverpool/Manchester and Edinburgh then beef up the service via Carlisle rather than send people the long way round.

I think services like the Avanti Scotland to London via Birmingham ones show that there can be demand for slower direct services if they're cheap enough, but that might not be enough in this case (and Lancaster to Liverpool has struck me as a slightly odd pairing not to have a frequent direct service, even with WCML constraints; Liverpool – Preston – Edinburgh services separate from the existing four a day through St Helens would help fill the gaps).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why?
The current one-a-day-in-one-direction service from Edinburgh to Liverpool via Leeds takes nearly 5 hours.
The journey can currently be made with a change at Preston in 3½ hours – or based on current TPX timings a through journey via Carlisle would take 3¾ hours, more than an hour quicker than the route via Leeds would be.
If there is genuine demand for direct services between Liverpool/Manchester and Edinburgh then beef up the service via Carlisle rather than send people the long way round.

Because it isn't just about end-to-end journeys, I'd use it from Huddersfield. Once TP North is fully wired and upgraded that journey will be a bit quicker too. By all means send a service up the WCML too. But rather than portion-working it off a Manchester to Edinburgh, I'd split it from the Liverpool to Glasgow at Carstairs- dividing at the northern end rather than at the southern.

 

[stevieinselby]

Because it isn't just about end-to-end journeys, I'd use it from Huddersfield.

The number of journeys that it facilitates are small – Dewsbury/Huddersfield/Stalybridge to Edinburgh, Liverpool/Manchester to Morpeth/Alnmouth/Berwick ... these are tiny markets and basing your through service on them will lead to the tail wagging the dog. With 4tph from Dewsbury/Huddersfield/Stalybridge to York, and 4tph from York to Edinburgh, it is a very easy journey to make with a single change, and the minimal gains that would be made from running a through service would likely to be offset and then some by losing flexibility and resilience.

Sure, we all want direct services for the journeys we might make, but realistically passengers will be better served by regular services and robust connections rather than stringing services together into too-long routes that will knacker reliability across the network just on the off-chance that someone might occasionally want to make an unusual journey. Last year, there were just 8 passengers a day travelling between Huddersfield and Edinburgh. Is that because people are deterred by the lack of through services? Hardly – Wakefield is a similar distance and a similar size and situation, but with direct services, and it only had 11 passengers a day, barely any more and certainly not enough to justify introducing a new service.

 

[lrbvoyager]

I personally believe that the 3 return services between Glasgow and Liverpool via Carlisle should be increased to 4 or 5 a day as the trains are always packed. It would be nice to have Edinburgh to Liverpool via Carlisle aswell as I would of thought there would be a big enough demand for it but as previously said by someone else that doesn’t mean there can’t be another service via Leeds. However it would make more sense for Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow to be transferred to Avanti as they don’t cross the Pennines and I believe the Avanti soft product is better. Instead I would have TPE operate Carlisle-Newcastle services over the Tyne valley as it actually crosses the pennine which could be extended to Morpeth or York.

 

[The Planner]

I personally believe that the 3 return services between Glasgow and Liverpool via Carlisle should be increased to 4 or 5 a day as the trains are always packed. It would be nice to have Edinburgh to Liverpool via Carlisle aswell as I would of thought there would be a big enough demand for it but as previously said by someone else that doesn’t mean there can’t be another service via Leeds. However it would make more sense for Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow to be transferred to Avanti as they don’t cross the Pennines and I believe the Avanti soft product is better. Instead I would have TPE operate Carlisle-Newcastle services over the Tyne valley as it actually crosses the pennine which could be extended to Morpeth or York.

Don't get mired in the name defining what they do.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The number of journeys that it facilitates are small – Dewsbury/Huddersfield/Stalybridge to Edinburgh, Liverpool/Manchester to Morpeth/Alnmouth/Berwick ... these are tiny markets and basing your through service on them will lead to the tail wagging the dog

The point of the TPE was to provide a second direct train per hour from Leeds to Newcastle and Edinburgh. That market is not small and the XC capacity is insufficient.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2025 ==

However it would make more sense for Liverpool/Manchester Airport to Edinburgh/Glasgow to be transferred to Avanti as they don’t cross the Pennines and I believe the Avanti soft product is better.

The name is just a name.

The current arrangement made more sense when the ex-FNW expresses to Blackpool, Lancaster, Barrow and Windermere were also operated by TPE. It made perfect sense to move the Manchester-Scotland service out of XC to TPE as part of that network. But as they’ve been transferred back to Northern, the current arrangement doesn’t make as much sense.

I’m not sure Avanti’s soft product any better now, though, not with the recent improvements to TPE with West Coast Kitchen.

 

[Manutd1999]

The point of the TPE was to provide a second direct train per hour from Leeds to Newcastle and Edinburgh. That market is not small and the XC capacity is insufficient.

Surely a much more efficient solution is to make the XC services longer (i.e. with a new fleet), not to add more services.

 

[Zomboid]

The name is just a name, but Liverpool/ Manchester to Edinburgh/ Glasgow via Carlisle are North-South WCML services, and it would make a good deal of sense for them to be part of the WCML Intercity operation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The name is just a name, but Liverpool/ Manchester to Edinburgh/ Glasgow via Carlisle are North-South WCML services, and it would make a good deal of sense for them to be part of the WCML Intercity operation.

I think this is already mentioned above, but I'd certainly agree, and would say 807s would be the ideal rolling stock for a bit of a capacity boost as they are often "sold out" and with plenty of standees.

 

[Zomboid]

807s are the 7 car straight electrics, right? The rolling stock specifics are probably not so important, but if the current trains are loading to capacity then running longer ones would be a good plan. If it does, it's not likely to happen soon enough that another order of 80xs is going to be possible. So probably more piecemeal microfleets!