Speculate how to procure electric freight locos

[Meerkat]

First is there a problem for this solution - Is there a shortage of electric freight locos, would the FOCs use more if they were available, and is the block price and risk - ie a government investment/guarantee is needed?
Is a last mile diesel essential, unnecessary, or needs to be an available option?
Lastly what is the minimum order that would get the producers to spend on designing a package to fit in the UK gauge - 50, 100?
History suggests we really don’t want the DfT speccing and procuring so I assume that means the best people would be a ROSCO as proxy for customers, but I am not sure how you would best use government money.
Could you set up a Government ROSCO and have a competition for a ROSCO to manage it? The funding could be government borrowing (Treasury won’t like that but make good ‘green investment‘ PR), or just a government guarantee on private borrowing.
Or is there a way for the government to fund the design and get a cut of any profit the manufacturer makes on the IP?

 

[ac6000cw]

We've already got in the UK 10 examples of a UK-spec modern electric loco with 'last mile+' capability - the class 88 - so no need to design anything new, just buy some more. The taxpayer could provide loan guarantees to encourage more to be bought and used (and scrappage schemes to get rid of antique class 37/47s etc. as well).

If you wanted a 6-axle equivalent of an '88' then I'm sure Stadler would be happy to provide a quote - their loco 'niche' seems to be as a supplier of more specialised locos versus the majors like Siemens.

 

[Meerkat]

We've already got in the UK 10 examples of a UK-spec modern electric loco with 'last mile+' capability - the class 88 - so no need to design anything new, just buy some more. The taxpayer could provide loan guarantees to encourage more to be bought and used (and scrappage schemes to get rid of antique class 37/47s etc. as well).

If you wanted a 6-axle equivalent of an '88' then I'm sure Stadler would be happy to provide a quote - their loco 'niche' seems to be as a supplier of more specialised locos versus the majors like Siemens.

I thought I had read that you couldn’t build more 88s due to new emission standards?
Would It be too niche for Stadler - very difficult to package with little that could then be adapted to other niches.
Scrappage scheme is a neat idea, but you would want something to make them turn in 66s and not barely working 50 year old heaps from the back of the yard!

 

[The Planner]

Until all the major Intermodal freight arteries are done I doubt most FOCs will take an interest.

 

[Meerkat]

Until all the major Intermodal freight arteries are done I doubt most FOCs will take an interest.

In the time it took to get them into service Gateway could hopefully be wired and get cracking on Felixstowe then all the ones to Daventry and Manchester could be electric. you could (should!) restrict the number of diesel paths on the north London line too.
Something must be done if we are to maintain the railways green credentials, and diesels chugging away through Camden most certainly doesn’t do that.

 

[JonasB]

I thought I had read that you couldn’t build more 88s due to new emission standards?
Would It be too niche for Stadler - very difficult to package with little that could then be adapted to other niches.
Scrappage scheme is a neat idea, but you would want something to make them turn in 66s and not barely working 50 year old heaps from the back of the yard!

I don't think there is such a thing as too niche for Stadler, they have built some very specialized vehicles in low numbers. Although I presume that they can get rather expensive.

 

[The Planner]

In the time it took to get them into service Gateway could hopefully be wired and get cracking on Felixstowe then all the ones to Daventry and Manchester could be electric. you could (should!) restrict the number of diesel paths on the north London line too.
Something must be done if we are to maintain the railways green credentials, and diesels chugging away through Camden most certainly doesn’t do that.

Southampton to the West Mids and on towards Doncaster also would need it, and if you wanted to really were serious Felixstowe to Nuneaton or whenever a block gets taken a diesel will be trundling across there.

 

[Meerkat]

Southampton to the West Mids and on towards Doncaster also would need it, and if you wanted to really were serious Felixstowe to Nuneaton or whenever a block gets taken a diesel will be trundling across there.

Of course, but chicken and egg. If they aren’t using electric locos for lines that are electrified it’s hard to electrify whole lines for freight.
There must be plenty of work from the East Coast Ports going through London to keep a decent sized electric fleet going. Plus Daventry to Scotland.

 

[The Planner]

Of course, but chicken and egg. If they aren’t using electric locos for lines that are electrified it’s hard to electrify whole lines for freight.
There must be plenty of work from the East Coast Ports going through London to keep a decent sized electric fleet going. Plus Daventry to Scotland.

Then there needs to be incentives such as reduced variable charges for a diesel vs electric. An electric such as a 92 gets charged significantly more per tonne.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Then there needs to be incentives such as reduced variable charges for a diesel vs electric. An electric such as a 92 gets charged significantly more per tonne.

Could you clarify if that is because of the way that traction current is charged for or purely on the modelled track wear? Thanks.

 

[JohnMcL7]

I thought I had read that you couldn’t build more 88s due to new emission standards?
Would It be too niche for Stadler - very difficult to package with little that could then be adapted to other niches.
Scrappage scheme is a neat idea, but you would want something to make them turn in 66s and not barely working 50 year old heaps from the back of the yard!

It's the 68's they can't order more of in the current configuration as they are only IIIa compliant whereas the 88's are compliant with the newer IIIb standard. I've wondered how useful the 88's have been as I don't see much mention of them but then they're a very small fleet.

 

[Meerkat]

It's the 68's they can't order more of in the current configuration as they are only IIIa compliant whereas the 88's are compliant with the newer IIIb standard. I've wondered how useful the 88's have been as I don't see much mention of them but then they're a very small fleet.

Ok, thanks. If the 88 was a success you might think there would have been at least rumours of more orders

 

[Bevan Price]

Ok, thanks. If the 88 was a success you might think there would have been at least rumours of more orders

At present, DRS does not have enough freight contracts to need more Class 88s.
Freightliner is getting some Class 90s formerly used on London / Norwich services, but will probably use those to replace Class 86s rather than replace diesels.
DBS has plenty of unused electric locos (Classes 90 & 92) which could be refurbished if needed, but they seem to be reluctant (perhaps understandably) to use electrics if part of the route still needs diesel haulage

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There are also electric shunters on order so that can take the issue away from freight terminals.

 

[squizzler]

Ok, thanks. If the 88 was a success you might think there would have been at least rumours of more orders

There was talk of a battery assisted evolution of the class 88. That would seem the way to go, it was said that it would equal a class 37 (1750hp) on diesel with battery in parallel, double that of the 88.

 

[edwin_m]

The current Rail Engineer print edition has an article on the Stadler Class 93 for Rail Operations Group, which will have a diesel offering reasonable haulage capability and a battery used to hybridise it and therefore boost maximum power as well as improving fuel consumption. The article doesn't appear to be on railengineer.co.uk yet. I'm not near the magazine to check, but one thing mentioned was that with modern traction electronics a Bo-Bo layout was considered to be adequate for freight haulage.

 

[The Planner]

Could you clarify if that is because of the way that traction current is charged for or purely on the modelled track wear? Thanks.

Don't know, the values are here Track access charges

 

[Dr Hoo]

Don't know, the values are here Track access charges

Thanks for the link. It isn't really clear to me that traction types make a big difference. (The wagons have their own charges anyway.)
Class 66s seem relatively cheap on Domestic Intermodal, at £3.3419/thousand gross tonne km (in the 2019-20 column).
Class 70s are £5.4345
Class 47/4 would be £5.0420 if still around on this traffic
Class 86s are £5.2352
Class 88s are £4.5645
Class 90s are £5.1816
Class 92s are £5.1470

 

[The Planner]

European Intermodal was what I was looking at in terms of Felixstowe, Southampton etc...
Unless I misunderstand it (very possible), using the numbers you have quoted if you are looking at a 1600t Intermodal then its £5.34 per km for a 66 and £8.24 for a 92.

 

[Dr Hoo]

European Intermodal was what I was looking at in terms of Felixstowe, Southampton etc...
Unless I misunderstand it (very possible), using the numbers you have quoted if you are looking at a 1600t Intermodal then its £5.34 per km for a 66 and £8.24 for a 92.

I think that we must be at cross purposes (and looking at different tables).
I will simply note that 'my figures' appeared to be 'similar', e.g. a Class 92 and a Class 70 are within 10% of each other. I have never understood why Class 66s are so cheap but suspect that it is because the dynamic modelling treats them as running more slowly because they are less powerful and thus cause less track damage.

It would be really great if a track access charging expert could enlighten me.