Specifying additional connection time - how should this work?

[py_megapixel]

You mean people who should be requesting additional time to change in their journey planner?

Not a critique specifically of the quoted post. This sort of thing is said quite often on this forum, and it does make sense. But I'm not sure it's particularly helpful, because IMO the current facilities to do it are really quite poor.

Trainline, which is used by a huge number of passengers, doesn't seem to have this feature at all.

I had a look at a random selection of TOC websites, which many passengers will also be using, and could find only one that has it - Cross Country. But theirs is so inflexible as to make it almost useless - you can only enter extra time in 30-minute increments, and it applies to every interchange station in your journey.

You could plan your journey on the National Rail Enquiries website and then click through to a TOC to buy. NRE has exactly the same lack of granularity as XC, but making matters worse it's buried under "More Options" and seems slightly broken (I selected "2 hours extra" and it was happy to give me connections of shorter than 2 hours in total). Also when I tried this for a few journeys, the TOC website I was redirected to threw an error or just redirected me back to its search page so it was impossible to actually buy the ticket.

The only journey planners I have found that have a vaguely decent option for this are most of the Trainsplit-based sites (but not Realtime Trains for some reason, the function is completely missing from there). You can enter any number of minutes you like, for either the whole journey or for specific stations, and it seems to work.

I wonder if the RDG should require ticket sellers to have a usable (for some definition) "allow extra time" feature? It is arguably quite an important accessibility feature.

 

[cav1975]

The feature on the forum’s site works well. I regularly use it to give extra time at Victoria when booking a Clapham Junction to Rainham Kent advance single.

 

[SaltAndVinegar]

GWR have... or... had... an "Accessible Booking Tool" which let you do this. It doesn't appear to be available, despite there being links to it on their website... not very 'accessible'!

TrainSplit, TicketySplit, RailUK Forums (all use the same back-end technology) let you specify extra time at specific points.

I regularly use it to give extra time at Victoria when booking a Clapham Junction to Rainham Kent advance single.

I strongly suspect you'd be able to catch a slightly earlier connecting service from CLJ regardless of having it on your itinerary. If it's restricted by SA, it's "Only valid on booked train and connecting services only". The mandatory leg on those advances is with Southeastern. Connecting services with Southern.

 

[Haywain]

TrainSplit, TicketySplit, RailUK Forums (all use the same back-end technology) let you specify extra time at specific points.

Given their share of the overall rail ticketing business they cannot be regarded as mainstream, much as I like the options presented.

 

[Plagiomnium]

I used to make journeys with a cross-London connection where I would walk between the stations, and journey planners (I'd use TOC websites and/or NRE) wouldn't give enough time for the connection because they assumed I'd take the tube. I would just book the legs separately - I don't think I had any idea there was a way to specify more connection time for a through itinerary. Of course I was pretty ignorant about how ticketing worked, but lots of non-expert passengers probably are, so I definitely think it should be made more available and prominent.

 

[befated]

Arguably the default connection times should be very generous, with a ‘shorter connection times’ option available for power users (who, unlike the less confident rail user, will know to look for it in advanced settings).

 

[blimmo]

Arguably the default connection times should be very generous, with a ‘shorter connection times’ option available for power users (who, unlike the less confident rail user, will know to look for it in advanced settings).

As long as I can buy advances with the shorter connection times this sounds sensible to me. Perhaps we can call the long ones default connection times and the shorter ones minimum connection times.

 

[Coleridge]

Arguably the default connection times should be very generous, with a ‘shorter connection times’ option available for power users (who, unlike the less confident rail user, will know to look for it in advanced settings).

I think the default connection time should be the minimum connection time for that station. After all, that's the whole point of the minimum connection time.

 

[Hadders]

Arguably the default connection times should be very generous, with a ‘shorter connection times’ option available for power users (who, unlike the less confident rail user, will know to look for it in advanced settings).

I disagree with this. It would work for ‘us’ on here, but I don’t think it would work for the majority of train travellers who are not as clued up as we are.

You’d end up with people selecting shorter connection times (especially if it ended up with a cheaper fare due to quota control etc), when it is not appropriate for them.

 

[styles]

On the National Rail website, you can specify extra change time but your options are limited to 30/60/90/120 minutes extra (and no, you can't fiddle it in the URL because it's formatted as `extraTime=4` for 120 minutes for example). This feels like it's catering less to accessibility and more to wanting to spend some time at the change point to idk visit some shops or get a bite to eat.

 

[blimmo]

I disagree with this. It would work for ‘us’ on here, but I don’t think it would work for the majority of train travellers who are not as clued up as we are.

You’d end up with people selecting shorter connection times (especially if it ended up with a cheaper fare due to quota control etc), when it is not appropriate for them.

Can we start treating passengers as adults? If you miss your next train because you shouldn't have selected the shorter connection time I won't have much sympathy for you.

Connection times will always do at least one of make people wait around for their advance (and therefore extend their journey time) or make people have to rush the connection. In reality they will probably do both for different people. So the only thing to do is to let people self identify how much time they need.

Some of the current times are good defaults (although many of the London ones have clearly not been thought about much since they are calculated in a very dumb way). But forcing everyone onto the same times wastes a massive amount of people's time and causes stress for others.

 

[py_megapixel]

On the National Rail website, you can specify extra change time but your options are limited to 30/60/90/120 minutes extra (and no, you can't fiddle it in the URL because it's formatted as `extraTime=4` for 120 minutes for example). This feels like it's catering less to accessibility and more to wanting to spend some time at the change point to idk visit some shops or get a bite to eat.

Yes, that's what I was getting at with my complaint about "lack of granularity" above. Even if you could fiddle the URL it would hardly be reasonable to expect the passenger to do that!

Also, if you specify additional change time, it's unlikely you will actually be able to book the ticket because the TOC website you get transferred to then won't allow it!

 

[styles]

Also, if you specify additional change time, it's unlikely you will actually be able to book the ticket because the TOC website you get transferred to then won't allow it!

Yeah that's already broken really, because the National Rail website lets you specify 120 minutes, but for the journey I chose (Chester to Hawarden Bridge changing at Shotton) it defaulted to Transport for Wales as the operator. When I clicked the button to buy tickets, it took me to the TfW website with a blank search form, effectively starting me from scratch. The TfW website allows 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 45, 60, not 120 (though you can fudge that one by changing `interchange_adjustment_time` in the POST request body )

 

[Coleridge]

Connection times will always do at least one of make people wait around for their advance (and therefore extend their journey time) or make people have to rush the connection.

I disagree. Minimum connection times are usually easily manageable for the vast majority of passengers, with or without luggage.

One of the journeys I make most frequently is Edinburgh to Cardiff. Sometimes, I change at Crewe, where both the minimum connection time and actual connection time are 10 minutes. I don't want a journey planner to default to giving me an itinerary with a wait at Crewe of 1 hour and 10 minutes.

 

[styles]

Maybe the solution is to allow either a greater or a shorter connection time to be specified

 

[Hadders]

Can we start treating passengers as adults? If you miss your next train because you shouldn't have selected the shorter connection time I won't have much sympathy for you.

Connection times will always do at least one of make people wait around for their advance (and therefore extend their journey time) or make people have to rush the connection. In reality they will probably do both for different people. So the only thing to do is to let people self identify how much time they need.

Some of the current times are good defaults (although many of the London ones have clearly not been thought about much since they are calculated in a very dumb way). But forcing everyone onto the same times wastes a massive amount of people's time and causes stress for others.

I think you underestimate the anxiety many people suffer when they travel by train. Not you, or those of ‘us’ on here who ‘know the drill’ and what to do when things go wrong.

Many people say 10 minutes to make a connection at Crewe is too little, or 45 minutes between Kings Cross and Paddington is insufficient. Yes, we know that’s plenty of time but someone unfamiliar with train travel, station layouts etc should be able to rely on them.

We know that’s plenty Kings Cross to Paddington can be done in 20 minutes but you don’t need much to go wrong. For example:

- Your train into Kings Cross is five minutes late
- You’re seated in the middle of the carriage furthest from the buffer stop
- You’re therefore one of the last to leave the train
- There’s a queue to exit the barriers at Kings Cross
- You just miss a H&C Line train, the next Paddington train is 5 minutes away as the next two are Met Line services
- You’re not in the best carriage for a speedy exit at Paddington

All of a sudden it’s not 20 minutes from Kings Cross to Paddington, it’s half an hour, or more (especially in the evening peak).

 

[py_megapixel]

Yeah that's already broken really, because the National Rail website lets you specify 120 minutes, but for the journey I chose (Chester to Hawarden Bridge changing at Shotton) it defaulted to Transport for Wales as the operator. When I clicked the button to buy tickets, it took me to the TfW website with a blank search form, effectively starting me from scratch.

Also if you are booking on a mobile phone the option to change which TOC it sends you to is hidden for some reason unless you click a little icon at the bottom of the screen. I bet lots of passengers don't even realise they have a choice. I didn't until I tried the same operation on desktop.

The TfW website allows 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 45, 60, not 120 (though you can fudge that one by changing `interchange_adjustment_time` in the POST request body )

Marvellous... I wonder if the developers realise you can just have a numeric form input that the user puts their desired number of minutes in...

Bizarre (mis)use of a POST request there as well.

 

[styles]

Marvellous... I wonder if the developers realise you can just have a numeric form input that the user puts their desired number of minutes in...

Bizarre (mis)use of a POST request there as well.

Probably not the developers' decision to have it as a drop-down - it'll be a BA or a designer I imagine, but yeah, I get your point!

 

[Haywain]

Also if you are booking on a mobile phone...

You are probably already using a retailer's app rather than NRE.

 

[blimmo]

I think you underestimate the anxiety many people suffer when they travel by train. Not you, or those of ‘us’ on here who ‘know the drill’ and what to do when things go wrong.

Many people say 10 minutes to make a connection at Crewe is too little, or 45 minutes between Kings Cross and Paddington is insufficient. Yes, we know that’s plenty of time but someone unfamiliar with train travel, station layouts etc should be able to rely on them.

We know that’s plenty Kings Cross to Paddington can be done in 20 minutes but you don’t need much to go wrong. For example:

- Your train into Kings Cross is five minutes late
- You’re seated in the middle of the carriage furthest from the buffer stop
- You’re therefore one of the last to leave the train
- There’s a queue to exit the barriers at Kings Cross
- You just miss a H&C Line train, the next Paddington train is 5 minutes away as the next two are Met Line services
- You’re not in the best carriage for a speedy exit at Paddington

All of a sudden it’s not 20 minutes from Kings Cross to Paddington, it’s half an hour, or more (especially in the evening peak).

My post repeatedly mentions exactly these people. I'm sure these people are stressed by what they see as short connections. I agree we should provide options to support these people by allowing them additional time to make their connection.

My objection is to the assertion that connection times must be long for everyone to support these people. In fact connection times being the same for everyone is actively harmful to these people!

If the argument is that it's too complicated for the railway to allow people to use different connection times that is a very different argument (and I would say rather sad though perhaps not surprising). If the argument is that people are too stupid and will choose the shorter connection time and then be stressed about it then I will repeat: can we please treat passengers as adults? There is absolutely no claim of "I wish the railway would give me longer to make the connection" if the passenger has opted in!

 

[Hadders]

My post repeatedly mentions exactly these people. I'm sure these people are stressed by what they see as short connections. I agree we should provide options to support these people by allowing them additional time to make their connection.

My objection is to the assertion that connection times must be long for everyone to support these people. In fact connection times being the same for everyone is actively harmful to these people!

If the argument is that it's too complicated for the railway to allow people to use different connection times that is a very different argument (and I would say rather sad though perhaps not surprising). If the argument is that people are too stupid and will choose the shorter connection time and then be stressed about it then I will repeat: can we please treat passengers as adults? There is absolutely no claim of "I wish the railway would give me longer to make the connection" if the passenger has opted in!

So using my example of Kings Cross to Paddington, what do you think the minimum connection time should be and how do you arrive at that figure?

Then explain what happens if the connection is missed, especially when there is no delay to trains arriving at Kings Cross and a good service is operating on the underground.

If you’re going to allow travel with no penalty if a connection is missed then why would anyone ever specify additional time?

 

[SaltAndVinegar]

I’m not sure I understand the purpose of the question, given the NRCoT makes provisions for taking alternative services even on non-flexible tickets.

Provision is also made to compensate passengers for wasting more of their time if valid connections can’t be made, with most operators operating a more generous compensation scheme than the bare minimum required.

The only way I personally see such a feature being useful is when you intentionally want to linger at a particular station, to make use of specific facilities or sync up your itinerary with a friend coming from another station.

If there’s no specific reason to stop for longer, let the railway compensate you for not running a punctual service.

 

[blimmo]

So using my example of Kings Cross to Paddington, what do you think the minimum connection time should be and how do you arrive at that figure?

Then explain what happens if the connection is missed, especially when there is no delay to trains arriving at Kings Cross and a good service is operating on the underground.

If you’re going to allow travel with no penalty if a connection is missed then why would anyone ever specify additional time?

If the inbound train arrived on time and there aren't problems on the underground then the traveller wouldn't be allowed to travel later? If the inbound train is delayed by x minutes then the traveller is allowed on the next train from paddington that leaves after x mins plus their original connection. Seems entirely reasonable to me.

 

[Hadders]

If the inbound train arrived on time and there aren't problems on the underground then the traveller wouldn't be allowed to travel later? If the inbound train is delayed by x minutes then the traveller is allowed on the next train from paddington that leaves after x mins plus their original connection. Seems entirely reasonable to me.

And what should the shorter minimum connection time from Kings Cross to Paddington be?

 

[blimmo]

And what should the shorter minimum connection time from Kings Cross to Paddington be?

I don't know, I don't make that journey regularly. I would hope someone in the rail industry could work it out (perhaps from eticket scans).

I would aim for something that regular users could do reliably (assuming this is an option that is opt-in).

 

[MrJeeves]

I would hope someone in the rail industry could work it out (perhaps from eticket scans).

E-Tickets across London? Now we are living in a fantasy world.

 

[blimmo]

E-Tickets across London? Now we are living in a fantasy world.

Oops, good point!

 

[befated]

To be clear, I completely agree the current MCTs are too low for many passengers. What worries me is that most ’normals’ won’t post on RailUK and be advised to use the ‘add extra time’ function - they’ll just assume what the journey planner says is fine, especially if they’re not familiar with the stations involved.

That’s why I suggested making the default higher and allowing those who know they don’t need that long to select shorter connections, rather than vice versa.