Specials Route Knowledge

[BoroAndy]

How do some companies, e.g. WCRC, manage with long distance specials? Do they have several crew changes along a journey due to route knowledge, or do their drivers learn the entire routes? Also, is it ever possible a driver could take a train over a route he does not know?

 

[a340egkk]

I don’t know the specifics of how WCRC do it, but there must be a competent driver who signs the traction, and a competent driver who signs the route within the cab - this doesn’t have to be the same person (i.e. there can be a route conductor). Whoever signs the traction drives, and they are conducted along the route by the conductor driver who has the route knowledge. The conductor driver must be told how to stop the train in an emergency, where the emergency equipment is located, and how to shut down the unit/loco if required.

 

[godfreycomplex]

An example would be the Hastings DMU, which as I understand it is signed by a smallish number of GBRF Tonbridge drivers. They have fairly extensive route knowledge anyway (on account of T3 work etc) and so they can operate the train solo over the routes that they sign (most of the South East) but obviously need a route conductor out with of those limits (for example when they went to Bath/Bristol they needed conducting beyond I think Salisbury)

It’d be much the same for DB (and other freight operating company) operated charters, regular freight crews who sign the traction involved. The difference is, as most FOCs have drivers based nationwide who sign most lines in the country between them, they often provide relieving drivers rather than route conductors.

As for WCRC, oftentimes their drivers have come from elsewhere and are allowed to maintain or extend their previous route card. How route knowledge is actually managed on a practical level I don’t know.

 

[Surreytraveller]

ROG drivers sign anything, and sign anywhere

 

[Gloster]

ROG drivers sign anything, and sign anywhere

The spirit of Saltley men.

 

[4F89]

ROG drivers sign anything, and sign anywhere

They may sign it, but do they actually know it without pace notes?

 

[SynthD]

What’s the process of being a conducting driver? Are you pointing out the features of the route and how you’d respond if you were the driver?

 

[irish_rail]

They may sign it, but do they actually know it without pace notes?

This. Its frightening how much route knowledge some drivers apparently have. The standards on route knowledge between TOC drivers and drivers at the likes of ROG is scary. An incident with a SPAD near Stafford springs to mind when the owner of a loco just assumed he could drive it wherever he saw fit as after all it was his loco....

 

[Pseudonym]

ROG drivers sign anything, and sign anywhere

Blimey.
That's a hell of a lot to remember - how on earth do they get the route knowledge?

 

[43066]

Specials route knowledge? I’m pretty sure they sign the up Ghost Town fast…

 

[godfreycomplex]

This. Its frightening how much route knowledge some drivers apparently have. The standards on route knowledge between TOC drivers and drivers at the likes of ROG is scary. An incident with a SPAD near Stafford springs to mind when the owner of a loco just assumed he could drive it wherever he saw fit as after all it was his loco....

Wherever and however eh

In an ideal world route knowledge would probably be assessed by the RSSB or someone similar to an agreed cross operator baseline standard, and then operators would be able to add their own extras on top of that

 

[Saltleyman]

The spirit of Saltley men.

I see you have heard of the famous "Seagulls" then.

 

[ExRes]

I always have to smile when I see threads like this, a lot of people seem to think that by bringing up 'the likes of ROG' makes a big route knowledge card something new, I spent 6 years in the 90s with Res/EWS and saw, under EWS, some appalling behaviour in which Management, Railtrack and ASLEF were equally complicit including allowing drivers from a certain London freight depot to sign Willesden PRDC solely by using the sectional appendix, including the wrongly printed platform speed. We had big cards at Willesden, with some drivers signing GW, EC, WC, GA along with loads of yards and depots, and I only recall two mainline SPADs, one by a trainee who was cut and one by a highly experienced driver on a route he'd been driving for years. One thing I do know is that I saw more SPADS after I'd joined a TOC working over fixed routes than I did on FOC work

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

An incident with a SPAD near Stafford springs to mind when the owner of a loco just assumed he could drive it wherever he saw fit as after all it was his loco....

Just out of interest is this the 2012 SPAD involving 47843? If it is then I'd suggest a read of RAIB Rail Accident report 16/2013

 

[4F89]

This. Its frightening how much route knowledge some drivers apparently have. The standards on route knowledge between TOC drivers and drivers at the likes of ROG is scary. An incident with a SPAD near Stafford springs to mind when the owner of a loco just assumed he could drive it wherever he saw fit as after all it was his loco....

Exactly

 

[Austin926]

Another interesting thread
Got a question, do the TOCS & FOCS assign a set number of trips or driving hours for a driver to be able to sign a route?


Thanks

 

[Elecman]

Another interesting thread
Got a question, do the TOCS & FOCS assign a set number of trips or driving hours for a driver to be able to sign a route?


Thanks

The RAIB report 16/2013 into the Stafford SPAD indicates that FOCs certainly do

 

[Llama]

Yes there are 'route norms' which is the expected number of trips over a route that a driver will need to travel over the route in the cab before it is reasonable to expect they would reach (along with studying maps, sectional appendix etc and being given a one-to-one route brief by a DI or DM) a level of knowledge deemed competent to pass a practical assessment over that route. Some drivers need more time than the 'norm', and trainees doing their practical handling with an instructor over their identified core routes will be given double the norm.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Whoever signs the traction drives, and they are conducted along the route by the conductor driver who has the route knowledge.

In the report of a 1962 derailment of an overnight Anglo-Scottish sleeper train, with a conductor driver because it was diverted via the "Joint" Line, a material cause was found to be that the conductor driver, who was driving despite not having been trained on diesels other than shunters, seriously underestimated his speed on approach to Lincoln and took a 15mph junction at about 55 mph.

 

[DanNCL]

I have to admit I did find it odd that GBRF could find a driver with less than 12 hours notice that signed both 91s and the WCML from Mossend to Carlisle, when LNER can’t even find someone to sign them North of Newcastle in normal circumstances, but this thread explains how!

I can’t help thinking that allowing drivers to work a higher variety of routes rather than keeping them on the same ones all the time would help reduce SPADs. I’d have thought a SPAD at an approach control signal would be more likely with a driver that does that route every day, and was therefore expecting the signal to clear so didn’t act accordingly, than it would be with a driver who didn’t work that route often and therefore would be more likely to treat an approach signal on red as a red.

 

[6Gman]

In the report of a 1962 derailment of an overnight Anglo-Scottish sleeper train, with a conductor driver because it was diverted via the "Joint" Line, a material cause was found to be that the conductor driver, who was driving despite not having been trained on diesels other than shunters, seriously underestimated his speed on approach to Lincoln and took a 15mph junction at about 55 mph.

The conductor should never drive. But - I suspect - used to do quite frequently. Hopefully less so these days.

(I used to be involved in lots of moves that required conductors; it sometimes got almost comical. I recall one move off the East Lancs Railway where we had three drivers on the footplate and two guards on the back such were the complications of route and traction knowledge.)

 

[ExRes]

The conductor should never drive. But - I suspect - used to do quite frequently. Hopefully less so these days.

Unless the rules have changed recently then I have to disagree, the conductor should always drive if they sign the traction

 

[Elecman]

Unless the rules have changed recently then I have to disagree, the conductor should always drive if they sign the traction

should the train driver remain in the cab? The train driver of the train involved in the 1955 Sutton. Coldfield crash was criticised for leaving the footplate when the conductor driver took over

 

[Llama]

I have to admit I did find it odd that GBRF could find a driver with less than 12 hours notice that signed both 91s and the WCML from Mossend to Carlisle, when LNER can’t even find someone to sign them North of Newcastle in normal circumstances, but this thread explains how!

I can’t help thinking that allowing drivers to work a higher variety of routes rather than keeping them on the same ones all the time would help reduce SPADs. I’d have thought a SPAD at an approach control signal would be more likely with a driver that does that route every day, and was therefore expecting the signal to clear so didn’t act accordingly, than it would be with a driver who didn’t work that route often and therefore would be more likely to treat an approach signal on red as a red.

Drivers with bad habits such as approaching signals with expectations based on previous encounters will probably have incidents even if you try to take repetitive work out of the equation. Yes it's basic human nature but that's why we're trained never to do it, to avoid falling into the trap sometimes. Of course such spads & related incidents still happen, some people always think they know better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

should the train driver remain in the cab? The train driver of the train involved in the 1955 Sutton. Coldfield crash was criticised for leaving the footplate when the conductor driver took over

Whenever I've been given a conductor driver who signs the route and traction I've always left the cab, there's no need for me to be there at that time and the responsibility for the train is not mine.

 

[6Gman]

Unless the rules have changed recently then I have to disagree, the conductor should always drive if they sign the traction

Sorry, yes you are correct. But - arguably - that is not conducting, if you see what I mean.

The point I was making (a little clumsily) was that acting as a route conductor was not an opportunity to try something new.

 

[TheBigD]

Another interesting thread
Got a question, do the TOCS & FOCS assign a set number of trips or driving hours for a driver to be able to sign a route?


Thanks

It's over a decade since I worked at a TOC, but the two I worked at, one was number of days and the other was number of trips.

 

[ExRes]

The point I was making (a little clumsily) was that acting as a route conductor was not an opportunity to try something new.

Absolutely, I totally agree with you

 

[mainframe444]

I see you have heard of the famous "Seagulls" then.

There is an old gag that when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon, there was a Saltley driver waiting to relieve him….

 

[Saltleyman]

The man who said the above was a Gloucester Driver in the messroom at Horton Road shed. I was actually there when he said as we were watching the moon landing on the tv.
As you can imagine there was quite a loud cheer went round and lots of laughter !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2021 ==

At Saltley we had route refreshing days rostered in the link structure to allow drivers to maintain their route knowledge

 

[6Gman]

The man who said the above was a Gloucester Driver in the messroom at Horton Road shed. I was actually there when he said as we were watching the moon landing on the tv.
As you can imagine there was quite a loud cheer went round and lots of laughter !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2021 ==

At Saltley we had route refreshing days rostered in the link structure to allow drivers to maintain their route knowledge

On that theme many years ago I saw an advert on Derby station (cannot remember what it was for) which had a picture of the Trojan Horse for some reason, and was captioned "When the Greeks emerged from their horse in Troy . . ."

Someone had scrawled underneath "they were relieved by Saltley men".

 

[snookertam]

I always have to smile when I see threads like this, a lot of people seem to think that by bringing up 'the likes of ROG' makes a big route knowledge card something new, I spent 6 years in the 90s with Res/EWS and saw, under EWS, some appalling behaviour in which Management, Railtrack and ASLEF were equally complicit including allowing drivers from a certain London freight depot to sign Willesden PRDC solely by using the sectional appendix, including the wrongly printed platform speed. We had big cards at Willesden, with some drivers signing GW, EC, WC, GA along with loads of yards and depots, and I only recall two mainline SPADs, one by a trainee who was cut and one by a highly experienced driver on a route he'd been driving for years. One thing I do know is that I saw more SPADS after I'd joined a TOC working over fixed routes than I did on FOC work

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

I have wondered in the past just how some FOC drivers managed to be passed out on so many routes compared to TOC drivers, whose route knowledge would elapse after 6 months. You couldn’t possibly drive all the routes they’re said to have route knowledge over within a 6 month period.

At ScotRail the tendency has been to reduce depot route cards which has resulted in their knowledge becoming more and more concentrated. For example Glasgow Queen Street & Edinburgh route knowledge was cut back to Dundee having formerly gone all the way to Aberdeen, with Aberdeen crews knowledge being reduced to being as far as Perth.

Glasgow Central link 2 & Corkerhill drivers who used to know the route to Carlisle via Dumfries, were reduced to knowing the line only as far as Kilmarnock, requiring Dumfries or Ayr drivers to take over. This was all done in the name of reducing the risk of operational safety incidents, SPADs basically. There was no problem diagramming drivers to cover the routes within the 6 month requirement, but the prevailing belief was that even within that timeframe an occasional working wasn’t enough.