Spare trains

[ryan125hst]

As I have already mentioned in one or two other threads, I am interested in diagrams at the minute. One thing that I am amazed about is how few trains are spare at any given time, particularly with intercity operators.

For example, East Coast have thirty Intercity 225 sets, with a 31 Class 91's and 31 DVT's (so a spare of each), and have fourteen HST sets. Looking at the diagrams provided through a Freedom of Information request, in the week, they need 13 HST's and 26 225's, leaving just one HST spare and 4 225's (with an additional Class 91 and DVT).

A recent post on a thread of mine shows that there is a similar story on East Midlands Trains intercity services:

Monday to Fridays, there are 3 4-car, 15 5-car and 5 7-car diagrams: so there are 23 diagrams for the entire fleet. The rest are diagrammed for spares or maintenance, although obviously this depends on there being no operational incidents that could throw the trainplan out.

First of all, how many of the spare trains would be in for maintenance and how many would be sitting at the depot spare in a state that it could be used if another train was to fail?

Is this common for all operators? I'm aware that the commuter TOC's (South West Trains, Southern, Southeastern, Greater Anglia, First Capital Connect, c2c) have more spare trains outside of the peaks, but what about other operators, and what about the above operators during peak times?

As a percentage, how many trains in a fleet, on average, are undergoing maintenance and how many are spare and able to come into service if required?

 

[jopsuk]

Of Greater Anglia's 379 fleet, as far as I understand the peak time requirement is:
9x 8 car sets (2 units each) for Stansted Express, 18 units total
3x 12 car sets (3 units each) for Cambridge services, 9 units total
so 27 utilised. Fleet size is 30. As far as I can gather, they can spare one of the three nits to be away on testing- eg I think they've trialled one at 110mph on the WCML, there's a plan to have one away for conversion to a battery hybrid etc, so they only "need" two as spare/maintenance. I know we have GA employees though who're better informed.

 

[91104]

As I have already mentioned in one or two other threads, I am interested in diagrams at the minute. One thing that I am amazed about is how few trains are spare at any given time, particularly with intercity operators.

For example, East Coast have thirty Intercity 225 sets, with a 31 Class 91's and 31 DVT's (so a spare of each), and have fourteen HST sets. Looking at the diagrams provided through a Freedom of Information request, in the week, they need 13 HST's and 26 225's, leaving just one HST spare and 4 225's (with an additional Class 91 and DVT).

A recent post on a thread of mine shows that there is a similar story on East Midlands Trains intercity services:



First of all, how many of the spare trains would be in for maintenance and how many would be sitting at the depot spare in a state that it could be used if another train was to fail?

Is this common for all operators? I'm aware that the commuter TOC's (South West Trains, Southern, Southeastern, Greater Anglia, First Capital Connect, c2c) have more spare trains outside of the peaks, but what about other operators, and what about the above operators during peak times?

As a percentage, how many trains in a fleet, on average, are undergoing maintenance and how many are spare and able to come into service if required?

On East coast there is always at least one class 91 and one Mk4 set undergoing maintenance at Bounds Green. We used to have a "hot" spare that used to sit at Bounds Green ready with driver/guard to replace any set that failed during the day but that ended when the Eureka timetable came in so now if a set fails during the day it generally means one of the Leeds services gets cancelled as the turnaround times now are so tight stepping up of sets it's no longer really an option plus at East Coast (and I expect the other Intercity operators) there's no real extra peak hour services the timetable is pretty constant throughout the day whereas a commuter operator will tend to have units sitting round off peak or have the option of running short formed trains in the peak to fulfill the timetable.

 

[user15681]

I'll give examples with regards to Southeastern Highspeed. You are amazed how few trains are spare at any given time? Not with SE HS, you'd be amazed how many are spare. (although they're not all needed, so that's why. Note, this has led to the proposition of different off peak service levels, different calling patterns/routes and increased off peak train lengths for the future, but I'm talking about the current timetable).

First off, it's worth noting Southeastern have a fleet of 29 395s to run the Highspeed service.

Off peak, the minimum units needed to provide the service is 13 units, running on their own as 6 cars. (although 14 are used, one of the Margate diagrams is 12 cars)
- 6 for the Favershams
- 4 for the Margates (although 5 are used, as said one diagram is 12 cars)
- 3 for the Dovers

Peak time, however, 25 units are needed. These strengthen some services from 1 unit (6 cars) to 2 units (12 cars) and also provide extra services.

This means there are 4 units on depot all day every day, although I don't know how many are actually undergoing maintenance each day.

The 11 units that aren't used off peak are kept all over the place. 2 units will berth (normally in platform 13) at St Pancras from the end of the morning peak until the start of the evening peak, acting as hot spares should any other units fail. 5 units will head back to Ashford's depot, again from the end of the morning peak until the start of the evening peak, when they'll head back up to St Pancras. 4 units will head to Temple Mills depot, again between the peaks, before returning to St Pancras for the evening peak. These 11 units are only used for the two peaks, otherwise they sit around all day.

So basically, 14 required for off peak services, 11 additional required for peak services and 4 on depot.

 

[LoverOfTrains]

I'll give examples with regards to Southeastern Highspeed. You are amazed how few trains are spare at any given time? Not with SE HS, you'd be amazed how many are spare. (although they're not all needed, so that's why. Note, this has led to the proposition of different off peak service levels, different calling patterns/routes and increased off peak train lengths for the future, but I'm talking about the current timetable).

First off, it's worth noting Southeastern have a fleet of 29 395s to run the Highspeed service.

Off peak, the minimum units needed to provide the service is 13 units, running on their own as 6 cars. (although 14 are used, one of the Margate diagrams is 12 cars)
- 6 for the Favershams
- 4 for the Margates (although 5 are used, as said one diagram is 12 cars)
- 3 for the Dovers

Peak time, however, 25 units are needed. These strengthen some services from 1 unit (6 cars) to 2 units (12 cars) and also provide extra services.

This means there are 4 units on depot all day every day, although I don't know how many are actually undergoing maintenance each day.

The 11 units that aren't used off peak are kept all over the place. 2 units will berth (normally in platform 13) at St Pancras from the end of the morning peak until the start of the evening peak, acting as hot spares should any other units fail. 5 units will head back to Ashford's depot, again from the end of the morning peak until the start of the evening peak, when they'll head back up to St Pancras. 4 units will head to Temple Mills depot, again between the peaks, before returning to St Pancras for the evening peak. These 11 units are only used for the two peaks, otherwise they sit around all day.

So basically, 14 required for off peak services, 11 additional required for peak services and 4 on depot.

Hi Ryan, you've missed a few diagrams out for the Faversham route. In the morning peak time there are 2 services in the morning formed of 12 coaches from Broadstairs to St Pancras Int'l via Faversham. There is also 2 services in the evening from St Pancras to Broadstairs via Faversham formed of 12 coaches. These units then go into Ramsgate depot.

 

[306024]

Of Greater Anglia's 379 fleet, as far as I understand the peak time requirement is:
9x 8 car sets (2 units each) for Stansted Express, 18 units total
3x 12 car sets (3 units each) for Cambridge services, 9 units total
so 27 utilised. Fleet size is 30. As far as I can gather, they can spare one of the three nits to be away on testing- eg I think they've trialled one at 110mph on the WCML, there's a plan to have one away for conversion to a battery hybrid etc, so they only "need" two as spare/maintenance. I know we have GA employees though who're better informed.

That is the basic 379 requirement, but although 27/30 may seem generous in today's world, these units work many high mileage diagrams so their exams come around quite frequently. Managing 27/29 will need more careful scheduling of exams, but presumably Bombardier are confident they will cope.

 

[user15681]

Hi Ryan, you've missed a few diagrams out for the Faversham route. In the morning peak time there are 2 services in the morning formed of 12 coaches from Broadstairs to St Pancras Int'l via Faversham. There is also 2 services in the evening from St Pancras to Broadstairs via Faversham formed of 12 coaches. These units then go into Ramsgate depot.

Firstly, I'd like to add that what I mentioned above are the diagrams from May onward, which are only very slightly different from now, so apologies for that, although it doesn't make a difference really to the points being made here.

There are also currently 3 (not 2) services from Broadstairs to St Pancras (1x6 car, 2x12 cars) and the same reverse in the evening.

The 6 Faversham units I mentioned were off peak only. I am aware of those extra peak services you mention, I was just trying to keep it as simple as possible so included the extras under the broad 11 extra units required for the peak.

The morning peak 4 units you mention work 2x12 car services from Broadstairs to St Pancras as you say, those are 4 of the units that go to Ashford depot at the end of the morning peak as I said (currently, the 1 other unit that works the 3rd service from Broadstairs to St Pancras also goes to Ashford depot.). Effectively, the 5 units required for the peak Broadstairs to St Pancras via Faversham services are spare all day as they return to Ashford.

The evening peak 4 units that work the 2x12 car services from St Pancras to Broadstairs you mention are the 4 units that spend all day at Temple Mills. The 1 other unit for the 3rd St Pancras to Broadstairs service comes from another passenger working.

Again, this all highlights how the extra units required for the peak services via Faversham sit empty all day and aren't used off peak.

 

[tbtc]

As an example of how things change over time, I started a similar thread four years ago about this - http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33981 (since locked) - presumably some types of unit require more "spares" as they become older and therefore less reliable (similarly, we may see greater utilisation in fleets of brand new units as they reach a few years old and any reliability issues are ironed out)?

(the "winner" may be the Edinburgh Trams or the LM 139s!)

 

[142094]

Weekday requirements on the Tyne and Wear Metro are 78 cars for the peak service, as 39 two-car sets. This leaves 12 cars spare, which is normally said to be the highest fleet availability target in the UK, 92.5% (anyone know of a higher percentage?).

 

[swt_passenger]

Weekday requirements on the Tyne and Wear Metro are 78 cars for the peak service, as 39 two-car sets. This leaves 12 cars spare, which is normally said to be the highest fleet availability target in the UK, 92.5% (anyone know of a higher percentage?).

SWT have 43 x 444 diagrams on a weekday. 95%.

 

[142094]

SWT have 43 x 444 diagrams on a weekday. 95%.

Ah good, I can now correct someone who thinks they know it all.

 

[Class 170101]

360 fleet is 20 from 21 so just over 95%

 

[ryan125hst]

SWT have 43 x 444 diagrams on a weekday. 95%.

360 fleet is 20 from 21 so just over 95%

That's surprisingly high! Saying that, I would imagine that those diagrams would involve doubling up and, in the case of the 360's tripling up. Obviously if a train is due to split en route to serve to separate destination it would be a problem, but if not, a failure of a unit would be less than a long fixed formation set such as a HST or a 225.

For example, SWT operate 10 coach 444's as far as Bournemouth where one set detached and the other continues to Weymouth. While it would probably be overcrowded (how busy are they off peak?), a 5 car train could still run if one unit was to fail.

Out of interest, how many 444's and 360's are needed on Saturdays and Sundays, and how many are needed off peak on Monday's to Friday's?

 

[Nym]

And now for an old fleet...

1972TS requires 33 out of 36 trains (33 out of 36 of each unit) so 91.66% on a 40odd year old fleet, with one currently long(ish) term OOS it's closer to 94.3%

 

[87015]

357 fleet is 71/74 in service (95.9%) plus a hot spare in the peaks (97.2%). Tends to be a few running around degraded though...

 

[northernchris]

Does anyone know the daily requirements of the 185s? I suspect they are intensively used

 

[306024]

Out of interest, how many 444's and 360's are needed on Saturdays and Sundays, and how many are needed off peak on Monday's to Friday's?

For the 360s, if every Clacton, Ipswich and Colchester Town train ran as a 4 car you would need 11 off peak Mon to Fri and Saturday (same timetable pattern) and 8 on Sunday. But you would leave an awful lot of people behind. Many trains run as 8 cars, so a few 321s are needed as well.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For example, SWT operate 10 coach 444's as far as Bournemouth where one set detached and the other continues to Weymouth. While it would probably be overcrowded (how busy are they off peak?), a 5 car train could still run if one unit was to fail.

In the summer they probably get real busy with people going to Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth for the beach.

 

[SF-02]

Firstly, I'd like to add that what I mentioned above are the diagrams from May onward, which are only very slightly different from now, so apologies for that, although it doesn't make a difference really to the points being made here.

There are also currently 3 (not 2) services from Broadstairs to St Pancras (1x6 car, 2x12 cars) and the same reverse in the evening.

The 6 Faversham units I mentioned were off peak only. I am aware of those extra peak services you mention, I was just trying to keep it as simple as possible so included the extras under the broad 11 extra units required for the peak.

The morning peak 4 units you mention work 2x12 car services from Broadstairs to St Pancras as you say, those are 4 of the units that go to Ashford depot at the end of the morning peak as I said (currently, the 1 other unit that works the 3rd service from Broadstairs to St Pancras also goes to Ashford depot.). Effectively, the 5 units required for the peak Broadstairs to St Pancras via Faversham services are spare all day as they return to Ashford.

The evening peak 4 units that work the 2x12 car services from St Pancras to Broadstairs you mention are the 4 units that spend all day at Temple Mills. The 1 other unit for the 3rd St Pancras to Broadstairs service comes from another passenger working.

Again, this all highlights how the extra units required for the peak services via Faversham sit empty all day and aren't used off peak.

Such a waste. It would be great to see more off-peak services to Canterbury and coastal resorts making use of them. Demand could be increased by having lots of promotional or advance fares like other TOCs. SE have recently been doing £10 day returns which is good, as they have been very un-competitive on promotions for years. No advance fares though and the promo is limited (must be day return to central London). Having £5 - £10 advances would put them on par with other TOC's and lead to greater passenger numbers which could utilise the fleet and bring more tourists to flagging Kent coastal resorts.

I suppose the track access costs and staffing are putting paid to it?

 

[455driver]

Such a waste. It would be great to see more off-peak services to Canterbury and coastal resorts making use of them. Demand could be increased by having lots of promotional or advance fares like other TOCs. SE have recently been doing £10 day returns which is good, as they have been very un-competitive on promotions for years. No advance fares though and the promo is limited (must be day return to central London). Having £5 - £10 advances would put them on par with other TOC's and lead to greater passenger numbers which could utilise the fleet and bring more tourists to flagging Kent coastal resorts.

I suppose the track access costs and staffing are putting paid to it?

Not to mention maintenance of the trains!
A lot of trains receive maintenance between the peak periods.

You reckon offering super cheap tickets to try to get people to use these extra services would cover their costs do you?

The reason some TOCs offer very cheap off peak tickets is to try to get people to use trainds which are already running.