Spare Railway Metals...

[jasonkerner]

All over the UK, you often see old rails, either placed on the lineside, or between the rails of the current tracks - is there any value in these for scrap or melting down and being re-used for something else? Theres so many dumped all over the network, surely these something they can do with them.

Obviously not a priority to send a load of trains out with flat beds to pick them all up and close a section of track to do it, but seems a shame to leave them dumped if there is something useful that could be done with them, even if its for usage in sidings at heritage lines or melting down for something else

Cheers

Jason

 

[34D]

Someone started a very similar thread a month ago. The consensus was that it wasn't worth the cost of collecting it up

 

[Jones]

It was me

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=97741

NEVER raise the subject

 

[ffm]

So the scrap is worthless??????
The customer view of the railway of no value????????
I could use a word, but won't!
Network Rail should treat this as a priority, scrap steel is worth is around £10 per Tonne.............

 

[carriageline]

Read the blinking thread, all that was covered there, what's the point of raising it again!!

In short, the cost involved in recovering it won't really match the profit you get from there, in majority of cases

 

[steamybrian]

Sometimes the rails between the tracks have been delivered for future track renewals or the work has been done and are waiting removal.
A 60 foot rail weighs one ton. Value of scrap is £10.
Cost of removal with a gang of men and a train including crane costs more than £10.
Worthwhile doing if in connection with other work.

 

[34D]

I'd suggest £150 per tonne being a better estimate

 

[dysonsphere]

I'd suggest £150 per tonne being a better estimate

found this quote on line.

£0.065/KG

 

[455driver]

At the risk of repeating everything in that thread again because absolutely nothing has changed in the last couple of months! :roll:

If the block cannot be taken overnight because the gangs are carrying out work elsewhere then you will have to divert the trains so a line block of sufficient length to recover the rail can be taken, costs of the gang and equipment to carry out the recovery (the gang will probably have to be agency staff as all NR staff will have their normal duties to carry out), if trains have to be replaced by buses etc etc etc.

Yeah nice and cheap!

 

[GB]

I'd suggest £150 per tonne being a better estimate

Where did you get that figure from?

 

[Ploughman]

For scrap that we generate as a group we expect to get between £150 and £180 per tonne dependant on current price and grade of steel.
Been getting that for a few years now.

 

[Boodiggy]

The value of scrap is determined by the method of collection. Where I work on the west coast mainline we remove the rail in 25ft lengths to access points where it is collected by road. The cost we get credited for this is £180 per tonne. From that you need to take off the cost of haulage to collect, the price of the machine and staff to collect it and transport it to the access point, previous shifts using welding teams to burn the rail to the required lengths and any other prep. There is also the cost of the possession etc.
Another method of collection is the CWR train, and to use this rail is cut into 183m or 216m lengths. The money credited back is less per tonne but much more will be removed in one shift. From this cost will be the CWR train and a loco to haul it. There will also be much more prep involved as the rail will need to be placed for the train to collect it.
Although it may seem there is money just sitting around the collection has to be planned in around other, higher priority works and must fit in around other works in the possession. Removing rail is not as simple as it may seem when you see it from a train, there is a lot of prep involved and it is low priority works compared to any track geometry works etc. It may also be the case that you can get to the rail to collect it but there are other works between the scrap rail and access point to unload it.
Scrap rail does bring money back in but it's not just a case of stopping everything else to get it and to make a substantial amount back a lot needs removing at once.

 

[455driver]

I was idley looking through RTT and noticed the last couple of trains from Exeter to Exmouth last week (Mon-Thu) were replaced by buses, further investigation showed that it was so the scrap from the previous relaying job could be recovered, so it can be done.

 

[Boodiggy]

I don't think that would happen in many places. And I doubt that just rails it probably involved engineering trains. Possibly removing panels. No chance of that happening where I am on west coast.

 

[455driver]

He said the old track had been cut into short sections and put beside the line so it was possibly a small crane in use.

 

[Boodiggy]

Sounds like the old track was removed in 30ft panels, possibly loaded using 2 x RRVs to load on to a train and remove

 

[SansPareil]

Presumably it can't stay there forever though, you don't see decades worth of discarded rails at the trackside. For a start, it has potential to attract metal fairies, and there is always the risk of a repeat of incidents like that at West Ealing if running rails are simply discarded. In my opinion it is a crying shame the amount of rubbish that accumulates on our railway lines, and I include that left over from permanent way works as well as discarded by the public.

 

[daccer]

I believe there are regular trains running from both Whitemoor and Crewe to Aldwarke containing cut up rail lengths. Considering the frequency and length of these trains there must be considerable amounts of rail being recovered at these locations. From my meagre knowledge of the scrap industry I believe scrap rails are highly valued due to the high quality of steel used in the rails when forged.

One other thing Ive always wondered is all those thousands of white bags containing ballast (or very little after being emptied) all I believe carry deposits as the bags are reusable - any reason they are just stacked and left?

I am sure as Network Rail get their house in order they will start to look at factors such as lineside neatness in more seriousness. There are a myriad of reasons for tidying things up with finances being just one.

 

[Mugby]

Presumably it can't stay there forever though, you don't see decades worth of discarded rails at the trackside. For a start, it has potential to attract metal fairies, and there is always the risk of a repeat of incidents like that at West Ealing if running rails are simply discarded. In my opinion it is a crying shame the amount of rubbish that accumulates on our railway lines, and I include that left over from permanent way works as well as discarded by the public.

I'm beginning to think it might stay there forever. Between Birmingham and Chesterfield, there is scrap rail not only from the last re-railing job but from the one before that as well!

 

[ffm]

Presumably it can't stay there forever though, you don't see decades worth of discarded rails at the trackside. For a start, it has potential to attract metal fairies, and there is always the risk of a repeat of incidents like that at West Ealing if running rails are simply discarded. In my opinion it is a crying shame the amount of rubbish that accumulates on our railway lines, and I include that left over from permanent way works as well as discarded by the public.

Yes you do see this, even sidings long, long disconnected. Rail lies beside most of the main lines, often for years. It only disappears when undergrowth, or ballast creeps over it. A disgrace.
Removing used rail should be a standard part of replacement projects, not allowing it to be dumped beside the tracks.

The recent average price of ferrous scrap is actually nearer the £150 quoted, my apologies, plate and girder steel is £175 at present

 

[455driver]

I believe there are regular trains running from both Whitemoor and Crewe to Aldwarke containing cut up rail lengths. Considering the frequency and length of these trains there must be considerable amounts of rail being recovered at these locations. From my meagre knowledge of the scrap industry I believe scrap rails are highly valued due to the high quality of steel used in the rails when forged.

There is also a lot of rail taken to Hackney yard, Newton Abbot where the good bits are cut and welded into new sections for re-use and the unusable bits sold off for scrap.

One other thing Ive always wondered is all those thousands of white bags containing ballast (or very little after being emptied) all I believe carry deposits as the bags are reusable - any reason they are just stacked and left?

Every one of those bags I have had over the last 4 years have been disposable and no deposit taken.

looking at the state of the bags when they are finished with they certainly wouldnt be reusable.

I am sure as Network Rail get their house in order they will start to look at factors such as lineside neatness in more seriousness. There are a myriad of reasons for tidying things up with finances being just one.

If there is a cost but no (financial) benefit then it wont get done.

The money men rool okay!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Presumably it can't stay there forever though, you don't see decades worth of discarded rails at the trackside. For a start, it has potential to attract metal fairies, and there is always the risk of a repeat of incidents like that at West Ealing if running rails are simply discarded. In my opinion it is a crying shame the amount of rubbish that accumulates on our railway lines, and I include that left over from permanent way works as well as discarded by the public.

Have you ever tried to pick up a length of rail?

113B rail weighs 113 pounds a yard, UIC 60 weighs 60kg a metre, and that is fullipin heavy.

 

[Daniel Pyke]

Rail seen lineside isn't always scrap either. There are times when new long lengths are dropped many months in advance of the replacement works being carried out.

Then there are shorter lengths that left to use as closure rails should a rail defect be discovered which requires a length of rail to be replaced (minimum length is 4.5m from memory).

Most rail is recovered either for onward cascade if it has servicable life left or recycling if it is life expired. There is good money in scrap steel!

 

[Ships]

Yes you do see this, even sidings long, long disconnected. Rail lies beside most of the main lines, often for years. It only disappears when undergrowth, or ballast creeps over it. A disgrace.
Removing used rail should be a standard part of replacement projects, not allowing it to be dumped beside the tracks.

The recent average price of ferrous scrap is actually nearer the £150 quoted, my apologies, plate and girder steel is £175 at present

Scrap HAS to be removed as part of renewals works. Rail in the four foot and in long lengths in the cess is usually for future renewals or strategic spares (on areas that regularly need retailing).

Maintenance however don't always properly clear up if they've been undertaking retailing work. I think the current scrap value we get from Tata is £120-130/tonne.

 

[sng7]

Interestingly I noticed the other day that the old disused track between platforms 1 and 2 at Perth station has also been lifted in the last few weeks.

 

[Boodiggy]

Scrap HAS to be removed as part of renewals works. Rail in the four foot and in long lengths in the cess is usually for future renewals or strategic spares (on areas that regularly need retailing).

Maintenance however don't always properly clear up if they've been undertaking retailing work. I think the current scrap value we get from Tata is £120-130/tonne.

I know you say scrap has to be removed as part of renewals works but that is rarely the case. I would agree it is from projects but if look at the high output renewals as an example it is not removed as there is not the availability of the train to remove it. Maintenance does not generate the amount of scrap out there. I cannot speak for the whole network but where I work at the south end of the WCML nearly all scrap rail is from renewals.