Spare EMUs?

[rail-britain]

Are there any TOCs that are likely to have spare EMUs from December?

Probably looking at about 12 to 15 of the same type

 

[First class]

There's a few cl.508s about, (DC unit), but I don't think there's much anywhere else.

 

[me123]

Not enough to bolster the Ayrshire services come December anyway You might get the odd train sent up if you're lucky (perhaps one or two 321s for a month or so?), but I don't think you'll get anywhere near enough. In all likeliness, Ayrshire's just going to have to suffer.

 

[rail-britain]

Not enough to bolster the Ayrshire services come December anyway
You might get the odd train sent up if you're lucky (perhaps one or two 321s for a month or so?), but I don't think you'll get anywhere near enough. In all likeliness, Ayrshire's just going to have to suffer

Transferring such units causes its own associated problems; route acceptance, driver training, etc
I was actually thinking more along the lines of the Class 313, as I understand there may be many of these spare from December
It would be much easier to temporarily use these on the Cathcart routes, and transfer the Class 314 to Ayrline
From what I read at Transport Scotland the requirement would be for 12 units of the same type (which is also the PVR for the Cathcart routes
I already know the contigency for the Edinburgh - Bathgate is to retain the five Class 158s (as they will be spare on the common fleet until May 2011)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think it is only the 313 and 508 units that are 'spare', but if the Chat Moss line does get electrified and the 319s aren't ready to be transfered, then the 313s might find temporary use there.

 

[MCR247]

There isn't that any 313s spare though is there? According to wikipedia they are or soon will all be in use, but it isn't always 10% reliable. However there is over ten 508s in store I think

 

[MadCommuter]

but it isn't always 10% reliable.

Never a truer phrase said!

 

[Failed Unit]

I think the 313s will either all be on Great Northern or castaway. None going into store. 314s not really the unit for Ayr. No toilets and only 75 mph. Guess they could do Gourock. Plan c wait to reopen Bathgate? I will be interest to see how the route copes at times of disruption. That is a lot of trains between edinburgh and newbridge. 10tph on too track is a challenge when things are good.

 

[rail-britain]

I will be interest to see how the route copes at times of disruption. That is a lot of trains between edinburgh and newbridge. 10tph on too track is a challenge when things are good

It won't really be any different; loss of East Coast to Glasgow through Haymarket, and the Bathgate adds two trains per hour; net gain one per hour
The major issue will come when the other Haymarket tunnel is closed for electrification!

 

[158722]

There isn't that any 313s spare though is there? According to wikipedia they are or soon will all be in use, but it isn't always 10% reliable. However there is over ten 508s in store I think

313121 is the only ex-LOROL one not either with its new operator or in works - it is stored at Eastleigh, probably destined fro Southern though. 122/123/134 are stopped at Hornsey for FCC. 508301-303, 201-212 all stored at various locations, in various states. 6 321s temporarily stopped with FCC but due to re-enter traffic in December.

I may be wrong but the 508s are probably about the only homeless stock available.

 

[Z12XE]

Also the 17 extra 321s for NXEA - although idle now, they are diagrammed for daily use from the Dec timetable

 

[Failed Unit]

It won't really be any different; loss of East Coast to Glasgow through Haymarket, and the Bathgate adds two trains per hour; net gain one per hour
The major issue will come when the other Haymarket tunnel is closed for electrification!

East coast don't run to newbridge. Even when they stop going to Glasgow the paths will be taken up by another operator so the number of trains through haymarket will be the same.

 

[fgwrich]

313121 is the only ex-LOROL one not either with its new operator or in works - it is stored at Eastleigh.

Really? I havent seen it in there...and im working down there quite a fair bit these days...

What EMU's we do have for store down there are the three ex Lorol / Sliverlink 508s...

You can have those if you wan't!

 

[SprinterMan]

Why can't central door locking just be fitted to the Class 312s? They are about the same age as the 313s and I think they have done less miles. I believe they are stored at Shoeburyness.

 

[The_Stig]

I don't thin they will bother getting any new stock in. By the time they get accepted, staff trained etc they will most likely have the 380's up and running.

 

[yorksrob]

Why can't central door locking just be fitted to the Class 312s? They are about the same age as the 313s and I think they have done less miles. I believe they are stored at Shoeburyness.

I must admit, I had no idea that they hadn't been scrapped. If they are still around then they should be refurbed and used. I've never agreed with the hysterical fuss about slam doors on trains anyway.

 

[captainbigun]

Why can't central door locking just be fitted to the Class 312s? They are about the same age as the 313s and I think they have done less miles. I believe they are stored at Shoeburyness.

312s? hock: long gone.

 

[yorksrob]

312s? hock: long gone.

That deals with that one then Bl***y waste if you ask me).

 

[tbtc]

I already know the contigency for the Edinburgh - Bathgate is to retain the five Class 158s

You mean split the A-B services before they are up and running?

 

[DjU]

313121 is the only ex-LOROL one not either with its new operator or in works - it is stored at Eastleigh, probably destined fro Southern though. 122/123/134 are stopped at Hornsey for FCC.

313 121 was intended to go to store at Eastleigh but it never went there. It went up to Wolverton with 313 123 when they left LO.

 

[rail-britain]

You mean split the A-B services before they are up and running?

The timetable already has a split;
Balloch - Airdrie (2 trains per hour)
Helensburgh - Edinburgh (2 trains per hour)
Milngavie - Edinburgh (2 trains per hour)
Bathgate - Edinburgh (2 trains per hour)

Therefore it is quite easy to retain the Class 158 units on the Bathgate - Edinburgh, until there are enough Class 334
Equally, I have now been advised that eight Class 320 units would be retained between Balloch and Airdrie, allowing eight Class 334 units to be retained for Ayrline services

This does mean a shortfall of units on the Argyle line

 

[Failed Unit]

The timetable already has a split;
Balloch - Airdrie (2 trains per hour)
Helensburgh - Edinburgh (2 trains per hour)
Milngavie - Edinburgh (2 trains per hour)
Bathgate - Edinburgh (2 trains per hour)

Therefore it is quite easy to retain the Class 158 units on the Bathgate - Edinburgh, until there are enough Class 334
Equally, I have now been advised that eight Class 320 units would be retained between Balloch and Airdrie, allowing eight Class 334 units to be retained for Ayrline services

This does mean a shortfall of units on the Argyle line

Your post is confusing. After dec 2010 there will be no Edinburgh to bathgate shuttle. Are you suggesting that on of the services will terminate early and an Edinburgh to Bathgate shuttle will be in place to keep the frequency desired. This will only give 2tph over the core section.

The only place I can see spare units to be borrowed is FCC. The 317s are similar enough to 318s and 321s are similar enough to 322 and 320s that they may not require a full traction course just the conversion. It still raises the question is it worth it and can FCC delay the introduction of more 12 car trains?

 

[rail-britain]

Your post is confusing. After dec 2010 there will be no Edinburgh to bathgate shuttle. Are you suggesting that on of the services will terminate early and an Edinburgh to Bathgate shuttle will be in place to keep the frequency desired. This will only give 2tph over the core section

There are 4 trains per hour between Airdrie and Bathgate
Recheck the timetable and you will see how the service frequencies apply

 

[Failed Unit]

There are 4 trains per hour between Airdrie and Bathgate
Recheck the timetable and you will see how the service frequencies apply

I know. But your post suggests 6 trains per hour between Edinburgh and Bathgate. Re-read it you state the 4 services from the west coast and an Edinburgh to Bathgate shuttle. To me that implies 6.

 

[Z12XE]

That deals with that one then Bl***y waste if you ask me).

Indeed, the Ex-FGE ones were in very good condition, and for the last ten years or so of their life had been on fairly low mileage diagrams, and had already had a fair number of their doors blocked off.

IIRC the 312s were scrapped fairly quickly after going out of service - even beating some of the Ex LTS 310s to the cutters tourch (which had been OOU for a few years already).

Had they still been around, I doubt they'd have been use for much, with the majority of them being last used about 7 years ago.

 

[158722]

Really? I havent seen it in there...and im working down there quite a fair bit these days...

What EMU's we do have for store down there are the three ex Lorol / Sliverlink 508s...

You can have those if you wan't!

You might be right! Am sure was quoted as going to store at Eastleigh, but Abrail now lists it (and 123) at Wolverton, whilst thejunction has the pair at WN. 122/134 at Hornsey.

 

[Peter Sarf]

What ever units they use the favourites will be the ones that dont need any training. So I imagine 313s are very similar to Strathclydes 314s, 317/319/321 very similar to Strathclydes/Scotrails 318/320s.

As for the 508s they are a definite no-no - surely they are 3rd rail only ?.

The most likely outcome is that the delays to the 380 acceptance will not be that severe. They are at the early stages of acceptance/testing - if they did not find ANY problems then I would be worried about the quality of the testing. So they will plod on with a few diesel units under the wires and short/cancelled trains.

 

[rail-britain]

your post suggests 6 trains per hour between Edinburgh and Bathgate

I see what you mean now, in that case it should be 0 trains per hour
, as there are none
However, there are some diagrams that are solely between Edinburgh and Bathgate (early morning, late evening)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So I imagine 313s are very similar to Strathclydes 314s, 317/319/321 very similar to Strathclydes/Scotrails 318/320s

No matter how similar they are, they would still need route acceptance and driver training
If the issue was likely to last 6 or more months then it would be a consideration
As it is this is not likely (the current delay for full introduction is 6 weeks)

Yet again, the Class 322 units might have their end of lease terms extended having already been extended from December 2010 to March 2011
This would then release four Class 380, just long enough to meet the requirement for "additional" units

 

[Peter Sarf]

I agree generally with "rail-britain" about the inconvenience of borrowing spare (or otherwise) units. But I reckon 317s are identical to 318s and the same for 320s and 321s. EXCEPT the difference is that the English ones are 4-car and the Scottish ones are 3-car. That could rule them right out as I doubt if the 4-car units have SDO and I think enough routes would dictate that. I had not thought of that before !.

The most likely scenario is that the delays to the 380s wont be EXPECTED to be bad enough. If they do turn out to be delayed long enough and in large enough numbers it will be later on and there will be even less time then to usefully sort out alternatives.

The current 6 week slippage is just as likely to be recovered as it is to get worse. That is assuming there are still enough usable units in Scotland for driver training. I would expect that the units are more or less built on time and that it is just a case of retro fitting new software once the new version is ready.

I believe the main problem is with software and I think that affected the brakes. The roof-panel/aircondioning-unit that came of the roof of 108 seems to be a one off. But I was surprised to learn that 105 is still at Kingmoor since 25 September 2010. The pair had been on a test run together and suffered brake failure on 23 September 2010 (source = http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/page/Class+380 and another thread on 380s from this site).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'm not so sure the 317s are identical to the 318s; for a start the traction motors are completely different; on the 317s they are GEC and rated 247.5kW whereas on the 318s they are Brush and rated at 268kW - the two classes can, however, couple to each other so any differences will be minor.