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Spanish train derailment - 09 Sep 2016
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Zoidberg
Established Member
A sad event. The BBC report, with a photo from another aspect, may be seen at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37315566
I've not quoted from the link since the narrative is much along the lines of that in the opening post.
EDIT: The BBC report has been updated and now contains more pictures.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37315566
I've not quoted from the link since the narrative is much along the lines of that in the opening post.
EDIT: The BBC report has been updated and now contains more pictures.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I was on that route exactly a year ago, in the reverse direction (Porto-Vigo).
The trains from Porto are CP DMUs (the same as used in the Porto urban area including the Douro line).
The route is almost entirely single track on both sides of the border (River Minho), and is electrified on the Spanish side.
It widens approaching Vigo, and the layout at O Porrino is about the first multiple-track section coming from the south.
It is in no sense a fast line, maybe 80kph, perhaps 100kph at most.
Compared to the Portuguese section of the Minho line, the Spanish side is relatively modern following the electrification of the line from Ourense to Vigo.
One of the reports says the train hit a bridge, and subsequently the substantial OHLE stanchion.
Very sad, and with cross-border implications (CP train on ADIF metals).
By the grace of God and all that.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/09/09/inenglish/1473409568_602193.html
Here's a picture of one of the DMUs that CP uses for this service, after arrival at Vigo Guixar.
I see they are actually a Spanish design, the same as Renfe class S-592.
The trains from Porto are CP DMUs (the same as used in the Porto urban area including the Douro line).
The route is almost entirely single track on both sides of the border (River Minho), and is electrified on the Spanish side.
It widens approaching Vigo, and the layout at O Porrino is about the first multiple-track section coming from the south.
It is in no sense a fast line, maybe 80kph, perhaps 100kph at most.
Compared to the Portuguese section of the Minho line, the Spanish side is relatively modern following the electrification of the line from Ourense to Vigo.
One of the reports says the train hit a bridge, and subsequently the substantial OHLE stanchion.
Very sad, and with cross-border implications (CP train on ADIF metals).
By the grace of God and all that.
http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/09/09/inenglish/1473409568_602193.html
Here's a picture of one of the DMUs that CP uses for this service, after arrival at Vigo Guixar.
I see they are actually a Spanish design, the same as Renfe class S-592.
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edwin_m
Veteran Member
The train will have passed over two sets of facing points immediately before, which will presumably be examined very closely.
Doesn't look like an OLE support that was hit, more likely a lighting tower or possibly a radio mast. There is an OLE support apparently intact just next to it.
Also I'm rather surprised if it struck the bridge and passed through it without coming to a dead stand or swivelling across the tracks.
Doesn't look like an OLE support that was hit, more likely a lighting tower or possibly a radio mast. There is an OLE support apparently intact just next to it.
Also I'm rather surprised if it struck the bridge and passed through it without coming to a dead stand or swivelling across the tracks.
duesselmartin
Established Member
Very bad year for train crashes. I am planning a CP Tour soon, Cross boarder to Vigo is eliminated then.
WatcherZero
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Yes looks like a mobile phone mast though that's academic.
The train was reportedly swaying heavily left and right before hitting the bridge, swaying likely put it out of gauge.
It also looks like it was crumpled before it hit the mast as the bit that's head on with the mast is actually the left side of the carriage bent through 90 degrees to become the front. I would think that it failed to pass completely under the bridge with the right hand side being blocked by the arch causing the carriage structure to twist to the right then carried on through by momentum.
The train was reportedly swaying heavily left and right before hitting the bridge, swaying likely put it out of gauge.
It also looks like it was crumpled before it hit the mast as the bit that's head on with the mast is actually the left side of the carriage bent through 90 degrees to become the front. I would think that it failed to pass completely under the bridge with the right hand side being blocked by the arch causing the carriage structure to twist to the right then carried on through by momentum.
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duesselmartin
Established Member
could also be faulty track
edwin_m
Veteran Member
My guess is a derailment for some reason at the facing points, then running along the sleeper bed would feel like extreme swaying and also explain why it got far enough over to hit the bridge.
158722
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Single 3-car set 592.056 involved, CP driver, Renfe guard, one passenger and one other Renfe staff killed. The driver is unfortunately a friend of a friend and naturally, there is much sadness here and within CP.
The train has come off the single line from Vigo and instead of continuing on to one of the almost straight through lines at Porrino (should have been line 1), it has gone/been sent up the secondary loop (line 3) around the back of the island platform, which is used for only stopping services. As it has gone down this rear loop line, it has come into contact with the road bridge and then come to rest again the catenary support. The train is not booked to stop at Porrino, but ADIF (NR equivalent) were working on the through lines, resulting in it being sent into the rear loop, which has shorter points than the main through lines. The speed limit applied for this move is 30 kmh and both points are reported as being correctly set for line 3. No comment has been made about the signalling aspects, whilst the normal linespeed on the through roads is 100 kmh.
The train has come off the single line from Vigo and instead of continuing on to one of the almost straight through lines at Porrino (should have been line 1), it has gone/been sent up the secondary loop (line 3) around the back of the island platform, which is used for only stopping services. As it has gone down this rear loop line, it has come into contact with the road bridge and then come to rest again the catenary support. The train is not booked to stop at Porrino, but ADIF (NR equivalent) were working on the through lines, resulting in it being sent into the rear loop, which has shorter points than the main through lines. The speed limit applied for this move is 30 kmh and both points are reported as being correctly set for line 3. No comment has been made about the signalling aspects, whilst the normal linespeed on the through roads is 100 kmh.
duesselmartin
Established Member
That sounds like an accident in Germany in the year 2000. An over night train was diverted in Brühl station taking the Points at excessive speed.
Giugiaro
Established Member
Sad to know this sort of thing happened today. I was supposed to spot it today at Contumil, but never arrived... :cry:
Now, into context s****:
Train running in Adif Tracks.
Train leased from Renfe.
Train operated by CP.
Train maintained by EMEF and Renfe.
Service operated by Renfe in the Spanish section.
Driver was Portuguese in the return trip.
Officer was Spanish.
EBICAB/ERTMS isn't available in the Spanish section. So no ATC. (Remember the Santiago de Compostela derailment?)
Given the above situation, can you understand now the bloody mess happening between Spain and Portugal right now?
The only thing that I know is that this is one less train in the already troubled Regional service in Portugal. And if the investigation finds out the problem came from the train, it's the end of the service to Douro, Minho and West Lines...
Now, into context s****:
Train running in Adif Tracks.
Train leased from Renfe.
Train operated by CP.
Train maintained by EMEF and Renfe.
Service operated by Renfe in the Spanish section.
Driver was Portuguese in the return trip.
Officer was Spanish.
EBICAB/ERTMS isn't available in the Spanish section. So no ATC. (Remember the Santiago de Compostela derailment?)
Given the above situation, can you understand now the bloody mess happening between Spain and Portugal right now?
The only thing that I know is that this is one less train in the already troubled Regional service in Portugal. And if the investigation finds out the problem came from the train, it's the end of the service to Douro, Minho and West Lines...
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Sounds like the train took the loop at the through-line speed.
Something that would be prevented by Approach Control over here (forcing the train to slow before the loop signal cleared).
But that's only speculation, which I know we shouldn't do.
I didn't realise the operation was jointly-staffed, or that those trains are leased from Renfe.
Must be very sad on both sides of the border.
Presumably most passengers would be Portuguese.
The local language used on both sides of this particular border would be very similar.
Something that would be prevented by Approach Control over here (forcing the train to slow before the loop signal cleared).
But that's only speculation, which I know we shouldn't do.
I didn't realise the operation was jointly-staffed, or that those trains are leased from Renfe.
Must be very sad on both sides of the border.
Presumably most passengers would be Portuguese.
The local language used on both sides of this particular border would be very similar.
Flying_Turtle
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No... most were foreigners. It is not a very practical train for local mobility.
I have serious doubts about the over speed theory...
I have serious doubts about the over speed theory...
SpacePhoenix
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What sort of AWS/TPWS/ATP or equivilant signalling system is used there? Would it likely be track circuits or axle counters used for train detection?
Giugiaro
Established Member
SpacePhoenix:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuncio_de_Señales_y_Frenado_Automático
I think it is as basic as the British AWS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuncio_de_Señales_y_Frenado_Automático
I think it is as basic as the British AWS.
158722
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Most passengers were Spanish, 10 Portuguese on board. You quite right about the usefulness of the trains for locals.
As for the over speed theory, there is no speed related automatic control on that section of line in Spain, as others have said, the system is similar to AWS. Across the border here in Portugal, we have an all or nothing situation. Modernized lines have full speed (and signal aspect) related control under the CONVEL system (CONtrolo de VELocide, speed control, literally translated) - 5kmh over the limit transmitted to the train from a track balise and a warning alarm sounds to the driver, 8kmh over that limit and the CONVEL automatically applies the brakes, bringing the train to a stand. When no signal is picked up, the brake is automatically dropped, then the train has to proceed to the next balise at 30kmh. On non-modernized lines, we have no automatic signaling, no AWS and signaling is done by telephone between stations. Spain is similar to the UK, but relies to a significant degree on the driver in terms of him/her reacting to the warning information given to them.
Flying_Turtle
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That was not was stated on the media I saw... they only spoke of several nationalities and led me to believe it was not the case... but CMTv... my bad there!
Anyway for local mobilty between Minho and Galicia train it is not a practical... 2 fast and 2 slow trains per day (with the slow and fast trains runing almost together )
Also the train running 20 minutes after was far more practical as it serves more stops and conects much more places. But then... different views!
And I maintain: I doubt there was overspeed... but this is just guessing the opposite is already being told around:
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...ilar-tren-porrino/00031473407126976202389.htm
Btw the Convel intervenes at >10 kmh (simply some units are more sensitive than others)
Anyway for local mobilty between Minho and Galicia train it is not a practical... 2 fast and 2 slow trains per day (with the slow and fast trains runing almost together )
Also the train running 20 minutes after was far more practical as it serves more stops and conects much more places. But then... different views!
And I maintain: I doubt there was overspeed... but this is just guessing the opposite is already being told around:
http://www.lavozdegalicia.es/notici...ilar-tren-porrino/00031473407126976202389.htm
Btw the Convel intervenes at >10 kmh (simply some units are more sensitive than others)
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Giugiaro
Established Member
You watch that rubish?
That's like the "The Sun" in Portugal. And I don't even want to investigate which one is the worst!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Press Release by CP confirms a total of 69 passengers were onboard the train, plus staff, at the moment of the accident.
The text isn't translated, but this is the source:
https://www.cp.pt/institucional/en/press/press-releases/acidente-comboio-celta
Flying_Turtle
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Sometimes you see what others want to see and you don t havea chooce do you? And you know..this people is either CMtv or TVI reality... apart from football...
I believe the Daily Express is the worst...
Tweet by sky news:
Update - At least two people are dead and others are injured after a commuter train derailed in O Porriño in #Galicia in northern #Spain
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
There is a local from Vigo to Valenca, on the PT side of the border, once a day each way.
The Porto train (0902 from Vigo) is non-stop to Valenca, while the local (0920) stops at 4 stations including O Porrino.
Comes back in the evening.
158722
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There are technically 4 connections a day between Porto and Vigo - the two fast Celtas, morning and evening - and two Valença-Vigo local returns, again morning and evening, operated by Renfe, connecting with CP Regional services to Nine/Porto. Why anyone would actually use the Regional connections all the way is a different matter of course, given they take up to around 2.5 hours longer...
Flying_Turtle
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Maybe because not everyone wants to travel just between vigo / valença / viana / nine / Porto... plenty of towns in betwen you know?
158722
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I know - read what I said... all the way between Porto and Vigo. I well remember the local uproar when the new Celta service was introduced as being non-stop.
I, for one, will now think twice before using European rail services, too many crashes as of late.
I think if you are going to run a rail network, you either do it to UK safety standards or better, or you don't do it at all. You cannot take chances when it comes to railways as we have found this past year.
Thoughts go out to all those involved.
I think if you are going to run a rail network, you either do it to UK safety standards or better, or you don't do it at all. You cannot take chances when it comes to railways as we have found this past year.
Thoughts go out to all those involved.
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If you don't do it at all then you have to go by road; is that safer?
duesselmartin
Established Member
European Rail. Portugal has nothing to do with Sweden has nothing to do with Greece has nothing to do with Germany etc. Why is that so difficult to understand. Mind you, the UK had its fair share of accidents in the past
Giugiaro
Established Member
In Portugal no major accident has happened for a long time already. There was one in 2013 that miraculously didn't have anyone severely injured. The last major accident happened in 2008 and 2007 in the Tua Line, with a total of four killed passengers, and those accidents are very controversial.
The last prominent accident happened in 2002 that killed 5 passengers, and was in a section of the Lousã Branch, which is currently closed.
Mind that all mentioned before happened in unrefurbished sections of track, with either debilitated infrastructure, or absence of ATC systems.
As far as I know, no major accident happened in Portugal in the refurbished and most traffic heavy lines, and I find myself very secured travelling on lines equipped with EBICAB/ERTMS. I can't really say the same about the UK and its AWS though.
Spain, however, already suffered two major accidents in two years, one in Santiago de Compostela with an High Speed train, and another with a leased Spanish DMU, both in "AWS" sections of track. Mind that for a second.
The last prominent accident happened in 2002 that killed 5 passengers, and was in a section of the Lousã Branch, which is currently closed.
Mind that all mentioned before happened in unrefurbished sections of track, with either debilitated infrastructure, or absence of ATC systems.
As far as I know, no major accident happened in Portugal in the refurbished and most traffic heavy lines, and I find myself very secured travelling on lines equipped with EBICAB/ERTMS. I can't really say the same about the UK and its AWS though.
Spain, however, already suffered two major accidents in two years, one in Santiago de Compostela with an High Speed train, and another with a leased Spanish DMU, both in "AWS" sections of track. Mind that for a second.
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