Southwest trains £80 fine.

[Atotheb]

Hi all,

I have been pointed to this forum to see if I can get some advice.

Story time first of all. I got a train one stop over from Fareham to Swanwick, which I get occasionally to work, purchasing my ticket before hand for £2.80. I (stupidly) left the ticket on the table I was sitting at and got off the train at the next station and was stopped at the exit by a southwest trains guard dressed up like a member of the BTP. I only notice he wasn't BTP after talking to him for 5 minutes and noticing the uniform had SWT on it and not BTP.

Getting side tracked for a second, this guy was rude and aggressive when I explained the situation to him. He raised his voice, got physically quite close and I had to tell him to calm down and stop being aggressive. He accused me of lying and fare jumping even after I showed him a few previous tickets that I had in my wallet.

After asking me to come with him to one side, baring in mind at this point I still thought he was BTP and taking all my details, he then told me I was not detained and free to go at any time. I continued to answer his questions as I thought it wouldn't hurt and he calmed down a bit and I didn't want to make the situation worse by leaving before he'd finished his questions.

Now back to the main issue, I've today received a letter which says "On investigation, we feel there is enough evidence to successfully prosecute, so on and so on.

Two options are given, either pay the fare of £3.20 (should be £2.80) and £80.00 operational and administration costs. Or go to court.

I'm trying to find out my options and the likelyhood that I can successfully appeal this. Would it be worth making a complaint about the "service" I received?

Thank you for any help, I really appreciate it.

 

[mikeg]

I'd pay up then maybe put in a complaint separately. Appeal? You could always plead not guilty in court, but expect to lose as you are legally guilty - you were unable to provide a ticket for inspection, failure to do this is a byelaw offence. Also I can't find any such thing as a £2.80 fare between these two stations, £3.20 is the anytime day single valid via any permitted route, this would be the correct fare in the given situation. Were you offered a penalty fare at the time?

 

[najaB]

I'm trying to find out my options and the likelyhood that I can successfully appeal this. Would it be worth making a complaint about the "service" I received?

Seeing as it isn't a Penalty Fare there isn't anything to 'appeal'. If they intend to prosecute you under the Railway Byelaws (specifically Byelaw 18.2) then the prosecution would be successful.

As such, some would advise paying the £83.20 and chalking it up to experience. If I were in your position, I would write back to SWT acknowledging that you were in the wrong since you couldn't produce your ticket when requested, but point out that you have a history of paying for your tickets (I assume that you can prove this) and ask if they would consider a lower settlement amount.

As to making a complaint about the behaviour of the inspector, that would have no impact on a prosecution if the matter goes that far. So either drop it, or deal with it separately to the ticketing issue.

 

[Atotheb]

Hi both,

Thank you for responding.

Firstly, the £2.80 is the cost when I buy at Fareham station from the desk. I'm not sure why there is a discrepancy. As for the penalty fare, no I wasn't offered anything at all. Just told I would likely be prosecuted for not having a valid ticket.

I would have paid the £20 if given the opportunity as I should have had the ticket on me, but I feel that as there was no option to pay the penalty, I shouldn't then have to pay 4x that because the guard decided, in his words, I had no intention of paying the fare.

Is there some way of getting them to just charge the penalty fare? If so, who would be best to speak to? I'm conscious that phoning the prosecution team will likely be a waste of time.

Thanks again.

 

[bb21]

A Penalty Fare cannot be retrospectively issued. A Penalty Fare is discretionary in any case so there is no obligation to issue one.

Did you catch a Southern service? There is a Southern Only fare for £2.80, but if a penalty is to be issued, the full single fare should be charged, which means £3.20 is correct in terms of procedures.

I think this may go down as an expensive mistake, for not keeping your ticket with you until you leave railway premises.

How did you pay for your ticket?

 

[TEW]

Were you offered a penalty fare at the time?

Sounds like the OP was stopped by a Rail Community Officers who don't issue Penalty Fares, they can only report people for prosecution.

 

[causton]

Is there some way of getting them to just charge the penalty fare?
Thanks again.

Unfortunately not, penalty fares are for genuine mistakes only. If he thought you were not genuine, he has every right to report you for prosecution (or pay a settlement as above) as you did not show a ticket when requested, and that bit in italics is all you need to be prosecuted under the Byelaws I'm afraid. As is also said, these people are not penalty fare trained, they only deal with prosecutions.

 

[najaB]

I would have paid the £20 if given the opportunity as I should have had the ticket on me, but I feel that as there was no option to pay the penalty, I shouldn't then have to pay 4x that because the guard decided, in his words, I had no intention of paying the fare.

As bb21 points out, there is no 'right' to a Penalty Fare, they can only be issued on the spot by specifically trained staff who judge that there is no good grounds for pursuing a prosecution.

Is there some way of getting them to just charge the penalty fare? If so, who would be best to speak to? I'm conscious that phoning the prosecution team will likely be a waste of time.

There's no way to have this issue resolved by means of a penalty fare now, but it might be possible to convince SWT to accept a lower settlement amount. If you want to achieve this then, contrary to your assessment, it is precisely the prosecutions department who you should be dealing with. It is best that your communications be in writing - either letter or email - as that way you have a record of everything that has been said, and you can draft and re-draft your language to ensure that you actually say what you mean to say.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'm still struggling to identify the relevant points of your incident, and hope you can help us all.

Are you a fairly regular passenger on that route?
Do you normally have a ticket?
Is that ticket valid to pass through any checks at the stations?
Is that ticket invalid on the trains you often use for travel?
Are you normally able to travel with the invalid ticket without any challenge?
Is your sense of injustice that you have been questioned agressively after having done something you have been doing regularly without difficulty?
What outcome are you seeking?
How often have you travelled with an invalid ticket?
Why do you feel the offered settlement is unreasonable?

Answers to these might help us to assist you.

[Please do not think that I am making any judgement about you or your actions, but it is only from the answers to probing questions that we be confident in giving advice which is reliable].

 

[furlong]

Did you tell the inspector you had paid £2.80 for the ticket you had discarded? Did you purchase it immediately before travel or earlier?

I think most people would pay up in this sort of situation and put it down to experience. If you feel strongly, a subsequent letter to the company's customer services department might obtain a partial refund or at least a breakdown of how the £80 was spent on your case, but the rules are very clear that you must retain your ticket as you leave the train, so don't expect anything and take care not to dig a bigger hole for yourself.

 

[Atotheb]

I'm still struggling to identify the relevant points of your incident, and hope you can help us all.

Are you a fairly regular passenger on that route?
Do you normally have a ticket?
Is that ticket valid to pass through any checks at the stations?
Is that ticket invalid on the trains you often use for travel?
Are you normally able to travel with the invalid ticket without any challenge?
Is your sense of injustice that you have been questioned agressively after having done something you have been doing regularly without difficulty?
What outcome are you seeking?
How often have you travelled with an invalid ticket?
Why do you feel the offered settlement is unreasonable?

Answers to these might help us to assist you.

[Please do not think that I am making any judgement about you or your actions, but it is only from the answers to probing questions that we be confident in giving advice which is reliable].

Are you a fairly regular passenger on that route? Relatively. Few times a month.

Do you normally have a ticket? Always.

Is that ticket valid to pass through any checks at the stations? I assume so. I always get it from the ticket desk.

Is that ticket invalid on the trains you often use for travel? Again, I assume not.

Are you normally able to travel with the invalid ticket without any challenge? Yes.

Is your sense of injustice that you have been questioned agressively after having done something you have been doing regularly without difficulty? Well, not really. I can deal with someone being a dick to me, but when it costs me £80 then I have an issue with it.

What outcome are you seeking? To not have to pay £80. I would rather not pay anything as my only crime was leaving my ticket on the train. However a reduction wouldn't be the end of the world. I'm annoyed that I wasn't given the option of making things right then and there and instead I have to pay £80 for the privilege of them sending me a letter threatening court action.

How often have you travelled with an invalid ticket? As far as I'm aware I haven't. It may have been a southern train, but I'll look into it.

Why do you feel the offered settlement is unreasonable? Because it's £80 for nothing? What costs them the £80 in admin costs? It's a ridiculous cost.

 

[Atotheb]

So I have looked into it and the service I got was a Southern service, I paid for a Southern Ticket, yet was accosted by a southwest trains prosecution officer and sent a letter by Southwest trains...

Does this mean they have no authority and I can just inform them of their error?

Thanks for the replies.

 

[mikeg]

Unfortunately not. The railways have reciprocal agreements whereby one company can prosecute another's passengers to the point where it is best to think of these different companies acting together as 'the railway'. It may seem perverse but it saves each company from having to put their own enforcement staff on every patch, whilst ensuring revenue is protected.

 

[najaB]

Because it's £80 for nothing? What costs them the £80 in admin costs? It's a ridiculous cost.

It's not. It is assessed as being in the the middle ground between the typical cost of dealing with preparing a case for prosecution and the typical fine that would be imposed by the Court on a guilty verdict.

You always have the option to refuse the offer and let the case proceed to court.

 

[tony6499]

Take the advise and pay it, it then goes away unless you get caught again. You made a mistake, you got caught and this is the easy way out.

 

[cjmillsnun]

£80 for nothing?

How much does it cost to have the RPI at the station? They don't give their time for free. Then there is their pension and employers National Insurance contribution.

Next there are costs involved with investigation. Normally at least one other person will investigate and this will take a number of hours. That person has to be paid for as well. They will both have managers that will be paid for.

The RPIs are specifically trained. That costs money.

 

[Bishopstone]

Unfortunately not, penalty fares are for genuine mistakes only.

I see this comment quite often, in dispute threads. No doubt it reflects the strict legal position.

In my days commuting on a First Class season with Southern/Thameslink, those caught by RPIs with Standard tickets were almost universally issued with Penalty Fares (you would see the cash/credit card changing hands), even when the excuse was 'there were no seats in Standard': ie not a mistake on the customers part, but a knowing decision to evade the correct fare.

It's not directly relevant to this thread, but my experience suggests Penalty Fares are - in reality - issued for circumstances beyond genuine mistakes. There is probably a desire within the TOCs/DFT to have neither too few fines/prosecutions (indicates laxity at revenue protection), nor too many (seen as overzealous and persecuting those with special excuses etc).

There will no doubt be some who feel they've caught the rough end of this inconsistency.

I suppose if you don't ask why the customer doesn't have a valid ticket, you can proceed with a PF on the assumption of a mistake, which might be convenient for all concerned.

 

[Sprinter153]

I would rather not pay anything as my only crime was leaving my ticket on the train... I have to pay £80 for the privilege of them sending me a letter threatening court action.

Precisely. You committed a crime by not having a ticket available for inspection. Crimes have consequences and you need to take responsibility for your actions.

If I had a pound for every time somebody told me they'd lost their ticket or left it on the last train or on the platform, I'd be living in a much nicer area! I'm not saying you're lying but it's endemic.

You don't have to pay £80 for them 'threatening court action', you have the choice to let it proceed to court, where you would most likely be found guilty and end up paying a lot more.

 

[najaB]

I see this comment quite often, in dispute threads. No doubt it reflects the strict legal position.

It would be more accurate to say that Penalty Fares are issued when the RPI considers the evidence indicates a passenger who is in technical breach of the regulations, rather than one who is trying to play the system.

Your example of people being in first with standard tickets is a breach of the rules but the passenger did, at least, have a ticket to travel on that train and may very well have been unaware of the need for a first-class ticket. It was easier, cheaper and faster to deal with the matter by way of a PF rather than a prosecution - saving prosecutions for the ticket-less traveller.

The OP of this thread was in a similar situation: there was no evidence to suggest that he had deliberately travelled sans-billet, but at the same time there was no ticket presented on request. Hence the decision to dispose of the matter by way of a PF - an offer which the OP didn't, unfortunately, take advantage of.

 

[Atotheb]

The OP of this thread was in a similar situation: there was no evidence to suggest that he had deliberately travelled sans-billet, but at the same time there was no ticket presented on request. Hence the decision to dispose of the matter by way of a PF - an offer which the OP didn't, unfortunately, take advantage of.

There was no offer of a penalty fare. I would have taken it to be honest, even though I was a fare paying passenger, because I know that it's not worth the hassle to fight it.

I know I cocked up, I just wanted to see if there was a way of avoiding an £80 fine for something stupid. Thanks for all the advice.

 

[najaB]

There was no offer of a penalty fare. I would have taken it to be honest, even though I was a fare paying passenger, because I know that it's not worth the hassle to fight it.

Ah, sorry. I got a bit confused. It's possible that the RPI who dealt with you wasn't authorised to issue PFs.

 

[Stigy]

Story time first of all. I got a train one stop over from Fareham to Swanwick, which I get occasionally to work, purchasing my ticket before hand for £2.80. I (stupidly) left the ticket on the table I was sitting at and got off the train at the next station and was stopped at the exit by a southwest trains guard dressed up like a member of the BTP. I only notice he wasn't BTP after talking to him for 5 minutes and noticing the uniform had SWT on it and not BTP

You were spoken to by a Rail Community Officer, who wouldn't do a Penalty Fare Notice anyway, and I do believe that SWT don't PF passengers on/off Southern's trains either? (legally they can, but I believe there's deeper issues on a more local level?). I'd certainly make no mention of anything to SWT's Prosecutions Department that looks like you're trying to 'deflect' the situation. Was he actually aggressive? Or assertive? The reason I ask is that we hear it a lot here, and it's unusual for staff to start off aggressive, and it's usually that they have reason to assert themselves when people don't want to play ball.

Hi all,

I have been pointed to this forum to see if I can get some advice.

Getting side tracked for a second, this guy was rude and aggressive when I explained the situation to him. He raised his voice, got physically quite close and I had to tell him to calm down and stop being aggressive. He accused me of lying and fare jumping even after I showed him a few previous tickets that I had in my wallet.

I would bear in mind, when complaining, that the staff member in question will have a written report, outlining what occurred, so when asked by his manager to explain himself, he'll simply need to show him his report form (MG11). Also, as this offence happened several months ago (educated guess as you've now been written to, which seldom takes less than about 4-months at best!), I very much doubt SWT would entertain your complaint as anything more than trying to worm out of a prosecution (if you felt that strongly about the officer's actions, surely you'd have complained within days, rather than months?).

If you genuinely feel you need to complain, although I think we all know it would be pointless, you need to do so using the correct channels (Customer Services) as Prosecutions won't entertain any complaints and will simply give you Customer Services' number. Bear in mind though, the complaint doesn't really defend you, as you still committed an offence. If you brought it up at court you'd be told to take this up with SWT as it's not a defence for your actions which are just ticket related (unless there's more to this?) and isn't a mitigating factor, either.

 

[6Gman]

There was no offer of a penalty fare. I would have taken it to be honest, even though I was a fare paying passenger, because I know that it's not worth the hassle to fight it.

I know I cocked up, I just wanted to see if there was a way of avoiding an £80 fine for something stupid. Thanks for all the advice.

It's not a fine. A fine would be imposed by a court. This is an offer to settle the matter without court action.

 

[furlong]

I see this comment quite often, in dispute threads. No doubt it reflects the strict legal position.

I have never found any evidence to support that. "Genuine mistake"? "Honest mistake"? Those phrases can cover a range of behaviours - a criminal can claim they made a "genuine mistake" when they decided to commit a crime - and they are just confusing and unhelpful terms to use. If you read the legislation, the Parliamentary debates, the SRA's Penalty Fares guidance and rules etc. these terms are not used but the position nevertheless seems quite clear. Insofar as any 'intention' can be inferred, I'd find it easier to support a statement that Penalty Fares are only "intended" to be issued to dishonest people who would otherwise have been prosecuted for fare evasion (RORA) - the conditions of a penalty fares scheme being designed to provide straightforward evidence of dishonesty viz. ignoring the impossible-to-miss warnings. The flaw I see is that since the demise of the SRA nobody has updated the rules to take account of trends in society that have led to changes in the operating environment (reducing the effectiveness of schemes) and certain scheme rules seem sometimes to be flouted by operators with impunity.

 

[Master29]

Precisely. You committed a crime by not having a ticket available for inspection. Crimes have consequences and you need to take responsibility for your actions.

If I had a pound for every time somebody told me they'd lost their ticket or left it on the last train or on the platform, I'd be living in a much nicer area! I'm not saying you're lying but it's endemic.

You don't have to pay £80 for them 'threatening court action', you have the choice to let it proceed to court, where you would most likely be found guilty and end up paying a lot more.

The OP did not commit a crime as it hasn`t gone to court yet. A fine by SWT of £82.80 so as to avoid this going to court. It is up to the OP himself whether he accepts this or not, but he would be wise to do so.

 

[Llanigraham]

The OP did not commit a crime as it hasn`t gone to court yet. A fine by SWT of £82.80 so as to avoid this going to court. It is up to the OP himself whether he accepts this or not, but he would be wise to do so.

You commit a crime any time you transgress Laws and BEFORE you go to Court. The Court decides on the treatment of that crime. He has not been "fined" as only a Court can do that.

 

[Master29]

You commit a crime any time you transgress Laws and BEFORE you go to Court. The Court decides on the treatment of that crime. He has not been "fined" as only a Court can do that.

Leaving a ticket on the table he was sitting at and forgetting it is hardly a transgression of the law. He was required to show his ticket and wasn`t able to. This is not a criminal offence, he just didn`t meet the terms and conditions of his ticket and so was issued with a penalty fare. If he decides not to accept this offer then it will go to possible prosecution. The offence is alleged at this time. You are correct however as the £82.80 is not a fine as you say.

 

[mikeg]

Leaving a ticket on the table he was sitting at and forgetting it is hardly a transgression of the law. He was required to show his ticket and wasn`t able to. This is not a criminal offence, he just didn`t meet the terms and conditions of his ticket and so was issued with a penalty fare. If he decides not to accept this offer then it will go to possible prosecution. The offence is alleged at this time. You are correct however as the £82.80 is not a fine as you say.

Not true. The railway byelaws make it an offence to fail to produce a ticket on demand for inspection. Therefore an offence had been committed, also the OP was not offered a penalty fare, rather has been offered a chance to settle the matter out of court.

 

[island]

Leaving a ticket on the table he was sitting at and forgetting it is hardly a transgression of the law. He was required to show his ticket and wasn't able to. This is not a criminal offence, he just didn't meet the terms and conditions of his ticket and so was issued with a penalty fare. If he decides not to accept this offer then it will go to possible prosecution. The offence is alleged at this time. You are correct however as the £82.80 is not a fine as you say.

Whilst leaving a ticket on the train is not a criminal offence, failing to show it when requested by an authorised person very much is (section 18 (2) Railway Byelaws). We owe it to our readers not to give bad advice and I would counsel you to refrain from trying to give "helpful suggestions" on things you do not understand.

 

[Master29]

Whilst leaving a ticket on the train is not a criminal offence, failing to show it when requested by an authorised person very much is (section 18 (2) Railway Byelaws). We owe it to our readers not to give bad advice and I would counsel you to refrain from trying to give "helpful suggestions" on things you do not understand.

I was merely quoting a reply that was given to me by stating this is not a crime in the broadest sense. If I had murdered someone I couldn`t offer an out of court settlement. An extreme example I know but both are considered criminal offences in the language of the post that replied to me. A different level of offence granted. I do admit that my wording may have been poor. I wasn`t offering advice to the OP. Just pointing out to Llanigraham how ridiculous his post sounded, because by that reckoning we`re all criminals.