Southern to Waterloo East and Charing Cross?

[Krystal]

I found these two maps from about 2007-2008 that show a limited South Central/Southern service extended from London Bridge to Waterloo East. And I wondered, when on earth? When did they start going there, if at all? Or these maps are erroneous and no trains went there.

 

[FR510]

Yes they did, I remember seeing them. But not sure when they started or finished. Was it Tattenhem Corner they went to? Someone on here we know.

 

[bcarmicle]

There's an older discussion about these services a few years ago at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-at-charing-cross.114979/, suggesting they operated from before privatisation.

 

[stadler]

I found these two maps from about 2007-2008 that show a limited South Central/Southern service extended from London Bridge to Waterloo East. And I wondered, when on earth? When did they start going there, if at all? Or these maps are erroneous and no trains went there.

It was up until the December 2009 timetable change that they went. It was a mixture of Tonbridge / Reigate / Redhill / Horsham / Caterham / Tattenham Corner services. It was half hourly off peak and then extra peak hour services. The exact services operated changed a bit over the years. During engineering work you also sometimes got Brighton services going there. The class 319 / 377 / 455 / 456 all went there.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Who operated the lines before pre-grouping in 1923 is the reason for the South Central / Southern services serving Charing Cross.

The Tattenham Corner line, the Caterham line and the line from Stoats Nest Junction to Redhill and onto Reading via Guildford and to Tonbridge were South Eastern Railway lines and not London Brighton & South Coast Railway lines.

Therefore historically Charing Cross was their London Terminus.

The through services stopped in preparation for the Thameslink 2000 enabling works at London Bridge so that now they terminate in the South Central side of London Bridge.

 

[izvor]

I used the Caterham line a lot in the early 1960s and the service pattern then was 3 tph to Charing Cross (reducing to 2 tph at some point), joining/splitting from the Tats at Purley. In the M-F peaks they went only to London Bridge. Also at some point the Tat & Cat portions were reversed making Caterham the "major" line, front portion on down trains, rear on the ups. They used the fast lines north of East Croydon, some stopped at Norwood Junction and/or New Cross Gate.

The trains to Redhill and beyond from Charing Cross, mentioned by @stadler above, were a much later, short-lived development.

 

[Tram203]

It was up until the December 2009 timetable change that they went. It was a mixture of Tonbridge / Reigate / Redhill / Horsham / Caterham / Tattenham Corner services. It was half hourly off peak and then extra peak hour services. The exact services operated changed a bit over the years. During engineering work you also sometimes got Brighton services going there. The class 319 / 377 / 455 / 456 all went there.

2004-2005 roughly, I can remember having both 455's and 456's to Charing Cross, including a rather well loaded 2-car single 456 I think. These were fast between London Bridge and East Croydon too I seem to remember.

Never saw or had a Brighton express 319 there but these were only during times of engineering work and amended timetables as noted above.

 

[pdeaves]

Information I have been able to extract from the ORR register suggests that Southern (and predecessors) only had access rights from privatisation to May 2004, then September to December 2009 (then a year's worth of diversionary access only). Can anyone confirm with certainty whether there was any use or not in the 2004-2009 period, please? I might have the full story; the ORR register might be lacking or I didn't use the right search term!

 

[43096]

Information I have been able to extract from the ORR register suggests that Southern (and predecessors) only had access rights from privatisation to May 2004, then September to December 2009 (then a year's worth of diversionary access only). Can anyone confirm with certainty whether there was any use or not in the 2004-2009 period, please? I might have the full story; the ORR register might be lacking or I didn't use the right search term!

I’d suggest checking the Working Timetable archive that NR have published. Just search on Google or wherever for it.

 

[Rescars]

Who operated the lines before pre-grouping in 1923 is the reason for the South Central / Southern services serving Charing Cross.

The Tattenham Corner line, the Caterham line and the line from Stoats Nest Junction to Redhill and onto Reading via Guildford and to Tonbridge were South Eastern Railway lines and not London Brighton & South Coast Railway lines.

Therefore historically Charing Cross was their London Terminus.

The through services stopped in preparation for the Thameslink 2000 enabling works at London Bridge so that now they terminate in the South Central side of London Bridge.

This quirk of history was very convenient whilst it lasted. In its final years the Tats and Cats only ran as far as London Bridge during the rush hours though. When Thameslink was expanded the original proposal was to run these services to places well north of London, but sadly capacity considerations have restricted them to the terminal lines at London Bridge.

One very tangible piece of evidence about the historical ownership of these branches survives. The steam shed built for the branch locos at Purley was converted to a records store after electrification and still survives, proudly displaying the letters "SER" on its end wall - naturally well placed to be visible to LBSC passengers!

 

[30907]

This quirk of history was very convenient whilst it lasted. In its final years the Tats and Cats only ran as far as London Bridge during the rush hours though.

In fact, from SR days and ISTR from electrification a century ago.

 

[nw1]

To add: the Caterham/Tattenham divider pattern did cease sometime in the 80s, possibly 1984 or 1985.

The 1981 and 1982 timetables show the classic pattern of Charing Cross off-peak, London Bridge peak to Caterham and Tattenham,

However by 1986 (when I first visited East Croydon for real) the off-peak had become Charing Cross-Caterham alone with the Tattenham branch being operated from Victoria (can't remember which route) - with alternate trains terminating at Smitham.

In the peak the divider pattern still ran, I think, and from London Bridge, not Charing Cross.

In this era both routes were a mix of 455s and EPBs which may have contributed to the cessation of the dividers off-peak (as that imposes obvious complexity).

 

[Ted633]

Bit of extra info. When the Reigate to London Southern service changed to an all day service (2008? winter timetable change), it went through to Charing X in off-peak times. Can't prove it, but remember as I was going to Reigate College at the time

 

[nw1]

One of the posts on the older thread on this topic has reminded me of something.

I'm fairly sure for one year in 1985 (perhaps 1984 also) there was, in addition to the Caterham/Tattenham services, a Charing Cross-Reigate or Redhill service hourly during the day.

I think it went the Sydenham route and it provided half the Coulsdon South/Merstham services, the other service being provided by an (I think) London Bridge-Reigate or Redhill via Crystal Palace service. Consequently it wasn't perfect clockface half-hourly. Never saw these "in the flesh" but remember seeing them in the 1985 timetable, which was probably the most cut-back timetable of the entire 80s.

Can anyone with access to the 1985 or even the 1984 timetable (could well have come in with the GatEx timetable, not sure) confirm this?

It was definitely gone by 1986, when the Horsham services started calling at Coulsdon South and Merstham, having skipped them earlier in the 80s.

 

[yorksrob]

The 455's always looked out of place at Charing Cross amongst the proper trains.