Indeed it is a fact of life.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Southern Timetable Change 2018
- Thread starter GodAtum
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
I take it that's not the case with your services going forward?
I was about to say it's not a booked connection as the minimum changing time is 5 minutes there. However it is a booked connection. They allow you 3 minutes. I never knew that. Rather surprised given at other stations, such as Aldershot, they don't, even when it would be helpful but I'm going off topic.
One learns something new.
Scrap that. It's not a booked connection. I misread the timetable. So it is just a fact if how the timetable runs, rather than being away of providing a service.
Last edited:
OxtedSignaller
Member
- Joined
- 31 Jul 2010
- Messages
- 377
I think there is an underlying hidden agenda here though as well. To me it looks like they are getting ready for the big split post-2021 by cutting Southern services from some stations and leaving them to Thameslink and perhaps preparing for the Metro services to be operated by LO.
I used the evening Uckfield trains to Norwood Junction for about 4 years, and have to say this doesn't ring true at all. They were horrendously overcrowded, but I don't recall any disorder issues. Nobody who wanted to go to Norwood Junction or East Croydon wanted to use such a busy service, or inconvenience Uckfield branch passengers, but we had no choice after previous timetable changes, especially while Thameslink was diverted away from London Bridge. Those trains were regularly the most overcrowded I've seen, but the main problem was them being 4 or 6 car, not oiks daring to mix with their betters. Hopefully the longer trains these days have helped?
What does fare evasion or suspicion of it have to do with service improvement?
It took years to get the Gatwick Airport stops removed from most of the Southern peak trains and with it the clueless airport passengers with all their luggage and now they've put most of them back... Arghhhh!
Unfortunately they've ruined the connections with the bus I get to/from Crawley so it means an earlier start and later home via Haywards Heath for me, too.
Unfortunately they've ruined the connections with the bus I get to/from Crawley so it means an earlier start and later home via Haywards Heath for me, too.
tsr
Established Member
I must be imagining the fare evaders, illegal "entertainers", drunken fights, etc. that have been ongoing for many years. I've worked either with or around (!) those trains for longer than your 4 years. It's a big deal, and if it's not very well managed indeed, it can result in quite a lot of complaints.
The trains are not long enough to hold Norwood Junction passengers (or the Sanderstead / Upper Warlingham folks, for that matter, and I'm sure they'd have you know that they'd hardly think of themselves as "oiks daring to mix with their betters"!).
This, in turn, means that they are often a warm, noisy, overcrowded, rowdy environment with little room for manoeuvre when somebody disagrees with someone else. They are also wholly unsuitable for Metro traffic, as they are designed as regional units. The Uckfield branch is actually about the shortest distance on which they are suitable for use.
I don't really see what the point with diverted Thameslink trains is. Up to now, these trains have very rarely ever called at Norwood Junction or any stations in that area, even before the diversion through Tulse Hill. As for East Croydon, it has other choices anyway, and a lot of venues are in easy enough reach of the East London Line, Blackfriars (for Thameslink) or other stops. Passengers from East Croydon also refuse to board the (often longer) trains around the same time.
The Delay Attribution and Train Planning people do take into account information about service loadings and passenger behaviour that they get sent by both passengers and staff. In fact, they're delighted to receive it, in general, as it gives them "real world" estimates to play with.
Lastly, you'll be interested to see that, at London Bridge, the Horsham and Brighton services immediately precede the Uckfield services on most of the evenings of the new timetable.
The ticket purchasing statistics drive station usage statistics on a lot of these routes with frequent stops. Independent surveys such as DfT checks will rarely be able to gauge the number of passengers "on the ground" who are short-faring by one or two stations, and if that's to the detriment of their local stops, so be it. There are few benefits to servicing a small railway station where many passengers see it as a convenience not worth paying for.
A surprising amount of the specification for which trains are needed is driven by proven user requirements. The railways are not just run on the whims of the timetable planners.
I couldn't agree more. What is the point of the Gatwick Express if it is not to take airport passengers to the airport? They should not be travelling on packed peak commuter trains.
Last edited:
But what have they replaced the withdrawn trains with, thin air??
However there are people who don't live in Brighton or Victoira who might want the airport. I assume that they have user stats to back this up.
I remember when between either 5-6pm, as I believe it was, not many trains went south from Gatwick Airport towards Haywards Heath. It was something like 4 where as normally it might be 6. The trains were also badly spaced too.
SouthernOne
Member
Maybe some services towards London in Morning peak should be set down only at Gatwick. In the evening peak be pick up only.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 34,240
Which withdrawn trains? I’m just giving an example of similar existing train timings on SWR in response to infobleep’s earlier thread drift...
People have posted a number of examples of having less service.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 34,240
Which I wasn’t commenting about...
RJ
Established Member
I regularly commute from London Bridge to Oxted in the evening. I noticed the new timetable appears to have lost all of the evening calls at Norwood Junction, Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham which is quite unfortunate.
One good thing is the improvement of the London Bridge - Tulse Hill corridor and giving it a sorely missed link to East Croydon which was lost when the Smitham terminators were withdrawn. The current options aren't as good as the nice direct service was - either a change with a 25 minute wait at Selhurst, two changes at Tulse Hill and Norwood Junction, pay extra to go via London Bridge or making own way from West Croydon.
There is a choice, as there's usually a fast train to East Croydon 4 minutes after the Uckfield service. Either a 12 car Thameslink also starting from London Bridge or another Southern service. Many people seem have a preference to crush load into the Uckfield service rather than wait 4 minutes for a rather empty train. I'm sure a few do wait however. When I travel to Oxted, I arrive on the platform at xx50 along with dozen of other people travelling beyond East Croydon.
One good thing is the improvement of the London Bridge - Tulse Hill corridor and giving it a sorely missed link to East Croydon which was lost when the Smitham terminators were withdrawn. The current options aren't as good as the nice direct service was - either a change with a 25 minute wait at Selhurst, two changes at Tulse Hill and Norwood Junction, pay extra to go via London Bridge or making own way from West Croydon.
There is a choice, as there's usually a fast train to East Croydon 4 minutes after the Uckfield service. Either a 12 car Thameslink also starting from London Bridge or another Southern service. Many people seem have a preference to crush load into the Uckfield service rather than wait 4 minutes for a rather empty train. I'm sure a few do wait however. When I travel to Oxted, I arrive on the platform at xx50 along with dozen of other people travelling beyond East Croydon.
Last edited:
Cricketer8for9
Member
- Joined
- 11 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 966
Sorry, but I’m confused. They take the Norwood junction etc stops out of the fast Oxted train, so that it will be less full and that’s a bad thing, but having the service rammed is also a bad thing. Which is right?
Currently Gatwick airport bound passengers get off the train at Three Bridges to get a slow train that has come up from Horsham, or change to a Thameslink service.
I was being semi serious about the airport passengers. What has happened over the years is some very crowded trains have had Gatwick stops removed. This process continued until only a very few faster Southern services call at Gatwick which obviously makes those services more crowded with Airport passengers and makes them more annoying to regular commuters. The new timetable shares and dilutes the pain.
The good news is Sussex passengers who are switching between London Bridge and Victoria services can usefully change at Gatwick again, where they'll be able to get aboard faster than the airport passengers with luggage and get ahead of the hordes at East Croydon too.
Good luck enforcing that on Platform 4 at Gatwick... Remember, many will be unfamiliar travellers with luggage of the "there's a train...just get on it!" variety.
This timetable change presents me with a problem. I travel from Brockley to Caterham late Friday evening. Now there are no direct services, and the connection times at East Croydon are long (18 - 21 minutes). The alternative is to get the overground to West Croydon and the 407 bus.
The London Bridge slow line corridor is one of the big losers in this change in my opinion, New Cross Gate losing all fast service (rendering the lift useless) and appalling services to East Croydon and beyond. It is frankly unacceptable.
swt_passenger
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 7 Apr 2010
- Messages
- 34,240
It’s been a fairly predictable effect of the LO takeover for a while. Orange is good, and everyone wants to go to West Croydon or Crystal Palace...
tsr
Established Member
It’s a good thing to remove the stops. I haven’t yet heard a single complaint “on the ground” either.
Farningham
Member
- Joined
- 10 Nov 2014
- Messages
- 34
Brockley to Purley will still be possible as a through journey taking 34 minutes up to the 2250 departure - the change to the 407 there is much easier and quicker than navigating central Croydon to do so.
RJ
Established Member
It's unfortunate for the people of Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham. The current crowding situation for these evening Uckfield services has been created by the way the service is planned;
a.) Large gap in fast East Croydon services scheduled ahead of the Uckfield service, with much larger trains timetabled to run closely behind
b.) These evening Uckfield services arrive at London Bridge with 8-10 carriages, but they go back out as 4 car trains
The crowding problem will be resolved in May when the Thameslink services restore capacity to East Croydon so taking Sanderstead and Upper Warlingham's stops away isn't anything to do with capacity. I'm indifferent on the Norwood Junction stop.
Last edited:
From my experience the 2204 is the worst one (always a large standing load as far as East Croydon) as that has a 25 or so minute gap from the last train from London Bridge to East Croydon. The 2208 Horsham train is also only 4 coaches so that probably gets busy as well.
The 2304 isn't so bad as there is a fast train at 2256 to East Croydon that takes some of the load. Not sure why there's no 2156 (I believe there is a 2127 & 2227)
Hopefully this should all be sorted by the extra Thameslink services, though it's a shame those trains won't stop at Upper Warlingham any more.
There are a few factors here. The new schedules have 1.5 minutes pathing time outside Epsom waiting for the xx01/xx31 Victoria trains to depart. They might as well stop at Ewell East rather than sit oustside Epsom. Some have had time inserted between Leatherhead and Dorking to take into account the painfully slow approach into platform 3 at Dorking. Finally the journey times from Epsom to Ashtead and Ashtead to Leatherhead have been increased by one minute. I've no idea why this is.
John
It is not acceptable for Southern to be partaking in their propaganda exercise - frequent station announcements of "improvements" and through other means, when the service for many people and routes will be getting worse. For example, there will be no direct trains at any time from the Redhill-Tonbridge line to London. All peak hour journey times from Redhill to London appear to be increased.
this whole exercise seems to be some sort of conceptual idea rather than delivering trains going where people want to go when people want to use them and with seats available. A lot of people who have been using set services for years are going to loose out
- Status