Southern launch competition for 130 new carriages

[swt_passenger]

There must be hundreds of statements like that scattered across the various RUS'. I wonder how many of them will actually be actioned before 2020.

A slight majority, I'd expect, based on previous performance...

 

[TheJRB]

As for the spare 377s when they are eventually released from Thameslink, I'd expect them just to replace the hired in 508s/460s/whatevers, unless this tender actually does get a new build done in time. In that case then the Thameslink cascades could perhaps be used to allow an electrification, Southern's diesel routes or somewhere away from the franchise?

Marshlink electrification?

Although actually the cascading of DMUs would be significant I imagine, as has already been pointed out here. Plus at around 35 miles, it wouldn't be the biggest electrification project, depending on whether or not doubling is decided upon. Then perhaps through services from London Bridge via Redhill and Ashford to Hastings?

 

[tbtc]

The half hourly 8 car SN WLL service is a London and SE RUS proposal, but only when suitable dual voltage stock becomes available.

In TfL's CP5 HLOS proposals they recommend that the Clapham Jn to Shepherds Bush peak extras run all day, giving a 4 tph SN service on the very busiest section, but every 15 min to/from Croydon isn't formally mentioned anywhere that I can find.

Thing is, running DC units as far as Shepherds Bush is relatively straightforward assuming paths are there north of Clapham Jn - they could even do something really revolutionary and run them onto the Windsor lines if they can't easily reach Croydon.

Cheers for that.

With the NLL/ ELL improvements in recent years (under London Overground), there "gravity" of travelling around London is obviously changing - no more having to go into the centre to come out again on every journey when there are frequent "orbital" services.

Interesting stuff

 

[WatcherZero]

Im still waiting on a HS2/West Coast to Great Western link so I thankfully will never have to enter the big smoke.

 

[387star]

On a related notw will class 377s hired to FCC from the end of this year retain Southern livery? This is still going ahead? I', sure I read about it somewhere so FCC can run 12-car trains.

The last time they were hired they lost Southern branding only. Presumably affected units had branding reapplied.

I would also like to say how ghastly the FCC livery looks compared to Southern!

 

[swt_passenger]

On a related notw will class 377s hired to FCC from the end of this year retain Southern livery? This is still going ahead? I', sure I read about it somewhere so FCC can run 12-car trains.

It is expected this hire will be on the basis of 3 random units each week - and (based on suggestions elsewhere about the 12 car service pattern) it is quite possible they will actually form a single morning peak train from Brighton, and if they organise the day's diagram properly maybe they will always run back to Brighton at night.

There's a comparable situation with the single unit SWT have on Mon-Fri hire to FGW - I believe it is changed weekly and there are absolutely no indications (other than the guard) on board the unit that it is in use by FGW.

 

[TEW]

The unit on hire from SWT to FGW returns to Salisbury depot and changes every night.

 

[swt_passenger]

The unit on hire from SWT to FGW returns to Salisbury depot and changes every night.

I did see the same unit on a few successive days at Southampton, but that was quite a few weeks ago now, but I was aware it went back to Salisbury every night.

I should have mentioned that - as it supported my theory that SN's 3 x 377/2 could be back at their own depot every night as well, however a bit more research finds that that is what the franchise ITT calls for anyway:

From December 2011 until September 2013 the South Central Franchisee will need to make available to First Capital Connect (“FCC”) 3 x 4 car dual-voltage 377 units per weekday. It should be assumed that these are provided as one 12-car diagram that begins and ends each day at Brighton.

 

[paul1609]

Marshlink electrification?

Although actually the cascading of DMUs would be significant I imagine, as has already been pointed out here. Plus at around 35 miles, it wouldn't be the biggest electrification project, depending on whether or not doubling is decided upon. Then perhaps through services from London Bridge via Redhill and Ashford to Hastings?

I think Marshlink would be a bigger project than you think. Most of the track is unsuitable for 3 rd rail.
The platforms arent (mostly) long enough for 4 cars. The area isnt despite what people might think highly populated (Rye has a population of 4000) and is generally considered to be outside the London Commuter area.

 

[Minstral25]

I did see the same unit on a few successive days at Southampton, but that was quite a few weeks ago now, but I was aware it went back to Salisbury every night.

I should have mentioned that - as it supported my theory that SN's 3 x 377/2 could be back at their own depot every night as well, however a bit more research finds that that is what the franchise ITT calls for anyway:

Quote:
From December 2011 until September 2013 the South Central Franchisee will need to make available to First Capital Connect (“FCC”) 3 x 4 car dual-voltage 377 units per weekday. It should be assumed that these are provided as one 12-car diagram that begins and ends each day at Brighton.

Very interesting as the 12-coach diagrams all seem to start in Bedford for the morning peak as per "class377/5" comment on potential diagrams - the 7:48 does appear to be the reverse working of the 05:09 from Brighton


0658 Bedford - Brighton via London Bridge
0730 Bedford - Brighton via London Bridge
0748 Bedford - Brighton via London Bridge* 377/2 set

1604 Brighton - Bedford via Crystal Palace*
1630 Brighton - Bedford via Crystal Palace
1702 Brighton - Bedford via London Bridge

 

[TheJRB]

I think Marshlink would be a bigger project than you think. Most of the track is unsuitable for 3 rd rail.
The platforms arent (mostly) long enough for 4 cars. The area isnt despite what people might think highly populated (Rye has a population of 4000) and is generally considered to be outside the London Commuter area.

I'm sure it wouldn't be easy, but as it's my local line, I thought I'd mention it.

Despite the low population of many of the towns/villages on the route, seeing a two car 171 leave Ashford for Brighton, near to, if not full, you wouldn't believe there was a "low demand".

 

[Class377/5]

Very interesting as the 12-coach diagrams all seem to start in Bedford for the morning peak as per 377/5 comment - the 7:48 does appear to be the reverse working of the 05:09 from Brighton


0658 Bedford - Brighton via London Bridge
0730 Bedford - Brighton via London Bridge
0748 Bedford - Brighton via London Bridge*

1604 Brighton - Bedford via Crystal Palace*
1630 Brighton - Bedford via Crystal Palace
1702 Brighton - Bedford via London Bridge

You didn't read what I put. Not all diagrams have been made public yet. There is a further diagram to go but it's not public yet so hence I cannot talk about it. And it would be nice to be quoted too as you missed part of my post. The * means the 377/2 diagram. And the 0748 is not the reverse of a Brighton train in the new timetable. Bare in mind things are changing in regards to the timing of trains from December with FCC's services.

I did see the same unit on a few successive days at Southampton, but that was quite a few weeks ago now, but I was aware it went back to Salisbury every night.

I should have mentioned that - as it supported my theory that SN's 3 x 377/2 could be back at their own depot every night as well, however a bit more research finds that that is what the franchise ITT calls for anyway:

On a related notw will class 377s hired to FCC from the end of this year retain Southern livery? This is still going ahead? I', sure I read about it somewhere so FCC can run 12-car trains.

The last time they were hired they lost Southern branding only. Presumably affected units had branding reapplied.

I would also like to say how ghastly the FCC livery looks compared to Southern!

It is expected this hire will be on the basis of 3 random units each week - and (based on suggestions elsewhere about the 12 car service pattern) it is quite possible they will actually form a single morning peak train from Brighton, and if they organise the day's diagram properly maybe they will always run back to Brighton at night.

There's a comparable situation with the single unit SWT have on Mon-Fri hire to FGW - I believe it is changed weekly and there are absolutely no indications (other than the guard) on board the unit that it is in use by FGW.

The plan is not for Southern to have the unit all week. They will not be stabled at Brighton at night but Bedford. They are to stable mon-fri at Bedford. Fri night they return to Selhurst and go straight to Bedford to Selhurst on mon mornings.

Due to the fact they will only be with FCC in the week, unlike months last time, they will be keeping the Southern branding. Not sure about the CIS tho.

Should answer a few questions on here.

 

[Minstral25]

And it would be nice to be quoted too as you missed part of my post.

Sorry not very good at HTML stuff - hopefully have put it clearer now

Shame none of the trains from Brighton in the peak will be 12-car

 

[swt_passenger]

Shame none of the trains from Brighton in the peak will be 12-car

There is almost certainly a single peak train from Brighton, and back to Brighton in the evening peak, as well as the three each way to Bedford.

I've seen this online somewhere a few months back - even though Class377/5 is now treating it like a state secret...

 

[RobShipway]

There is almost certainly a single peak train from Brighton, and back to Brighton in the evening peak, as well as the three each way to Bedford.

I've seen this online somewhere a few months back - even though Class377/5 is now treating it like a state secret...

I am sure that I read a quote on it from someone at Southern in Rail Magazine a good few months back now.

 

[paul1609]

I'm sure it wouldn't be easy, but as it's my local line, I thought I'd mention it.

Despite the low population of many of the towns/villages on the route, seeing a two car 171 leave Ashford for Brighton, near to, if not full, you wouldn't believe there was a "low demand".

I know I live near Rye! but a full 171 equals a half full 377.

 

[Class377/5]

Sorry not very good at HTML stuff - hopefully have put it clearer now

Shame none of the trains from Brighton in the peak will be 12-car

That's kewl, sorry if it was a mistake from yourself. There is a diagram but it's not confirmed yet.

There is almost certainly a single peak train from Brighton, and back to Brighton in the evening peak, as well as the three each way to Bedford.

I've seen this online somewhere a few months back - even though Class377/5 is now treating it like a state secret...

Quite frankly what you've read before isn't 100% confirmed. I'm actually sat here with the diagrams but there is still some work to be done on which of the last diagrams will be 12 car to ensure it helps deal with the busiest train.

I actually said there was another diagram from Brighton so please read what I say rather than just insulting as you don't know is actually happening beyond all doubt. I do.

I am sure that I read a quote on it from someone at Southern in Rail Magazine a good few months back now.

I can state for sure that Southern don't know for sure themselves at this point, let alone to be public with them. I believe all they would know is what the borrowed units would be doing as it their units.

 

[thelem]

I know I live near Rye! but a full 171 equals a half full 377.

Only 2/3rds full if its a 377/3 - are the platforms long enough for 3 carriages?

 

[TheJRB]

Only 2/3rds full if its a 377/3 - are the platforms long enough for 3 carriages?

I believe the platform at Doleham is only long enough for one carriage, so SDO is already in operation on the Marshlink.

 

[Minstral25]

Class377/5 sounds like you have a task putting together the diagrams and don't blame you being cautious until they are finalised - if you need any suggestions to improve the services at Redhill I have millions of ideas - most of which probably will cost to much or won't work. But if we could get more Thameslink trains through in the rush hour before 2016 that would be very useful. You know a fifteen minute repeating pattern of Fast Thameslink, Semi-Fast Victoria, Slow London Bridge between 6:30 and 9:30 plus return in the evening would be a miracle

Back to the original post - what is really expected in Southern's order. My view is that they will create a new set of 5 coach units (5*26 = 130) to use on the Metro routes probably based on 376's or even 378's (God I hope not!!). They are missing 26 units currently - 23 class 377/5 and the 3 377/2 that are moving over in December 2011 so that would match quite well

 

[swt_passenger]

Back to the original post - what is really expected in Southern's order. My view is that they will create a new set of 5 coach units (5*26 = 130) to use on the Metro routes probably based on 376's or even 378's (God I hope not!!). They are missing 26 units currently - 23 class 377/5 and the 3 377/2 that are moving over in December 2011 so that would match quite well

The usually reliable Tony Miles of Modern Railways reckons it is 26 x 5 car.

 

[Minstral25]

The usually reliable Tony Miles of Modern Railways reckons it is 26 x 5 car.

It is the most sensible option - replaces directly the 26 missing units but with a 5-car variant that will be very useful in the metro area for the franchise committed 10 coach trains and gives opportunity to move the 4-car units to Outer Suburban and Express routes that are currently short formed.

I hope the 377/5 still come back and the DfT doesn't decide as Southern have these extra units that the 377/5s can go somewhere else. More likely I guess they will replace the 24 Class 442s when they return, which seem to cause a lot of trouble rather than the 19 class 313's which would be the other logical move.