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Southern Key Card - journey break permitted but no card reader!

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iansss

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I'm trying to establish whether/how I can use Southern's Key Card to make a one-off return journey (ie not a season ticket) between Redhill and Leatherhead, using the North Downs Line via Dorking Deepdene, then walking to Dorking Main for the train to Leatherhead.

On Southern's map https://www.southernrailway.com/smart-card/graphics/routemap.pdf it looks as though you can make a break of journey at Dorking Deepdene - except there are no Card Readers there for tapping on/off.

Protracted e-correspondence with Southern Customer Services (who initially insisted there were Card Readers there, until I asked them to send me a photo) has established that:

-- FGW and SWT staff can validate Key Cards on and off the train

-- There seems to be no objection to tapping out at Dorking Deepdene, then tapping in again at Dorking Main to resume the journey.

So the problem is the lack of Card Readers at Dorking Deepdene.

I suppose I could talk my way through the gates at Dorking Main (so that I don't have to tap in there), but (a) presumably that would cause me to be charged for making the journey via Clapham Junction... or perhaps via Guildford ... or ...? and (b) the whole point of the Key Card for me is to make the journey easier, not subject to unpredictable delays at Dorking.

Does anyone have a solution from a similar situation elsewhere on the network?

BTW I've not yet purchased a Key Card because of this uncertainty, so I've not made the time for experimental journeys to see what might happen.
 
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iansss

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I am trying to buy a standard return ticket... on a Key Card. So far as I can discover, the journey is covered by Key Card, it's just that a Card Reader is missing at one station along the way. That's a station where you have to disembark in order to walk to the next station (on a different line) to complete the journey. I'm hoping someone on the Forum who knows about ITSO ticketing may have come across a similar situation elsewhere that will provide some solution to this. Alternatively, someone may have a contact in the Key Card team?
 

LexyBoy

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The "Terms and Conditions" for The Key, which appear only to be available in this easy-to-digest form and not in a form which looks like it has had legally trained eyes passed over it, says:
Where Single/return or season tickets are held on the key, a journey must be started by touching a smartcard reader, failure to do could lead to a penalty fare being issued
My reading of this is that by touching in at Redhill you are starting your journey (i.e. the ticket is validated). If you then choose to break your journey, you are not required to touch in again since you are continuing a journey rather than starting a journey (the ticket you're using is already validated).

OTOH if you wished to start short at Dorking Deepdene, you would not be able to touch in and thus would not be able to use that ticket.

(b) the whole point of the Key Card for me is to make the journey easier
It would not appear to be doing very well in that regard...
 

SignalsMahler

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Protracted e-correspondence with Southern Customer Services

<D I can see how you run into difficulties right there...

Once you have double tapped in at Redhill the ticket is validated and loaded on to your Key card with the relevant information for your journey available to see via a card reader.

It's quite possible that even if tapping in/out at Dorking Deepene was available, which it's not as it's an FGW station, it still may not open the gates at Dorking. TBH It wouldn't surprise if you had the same result at the barriers with a traditional ticket for the same journey.

If the gates are not opened and manned at Dorking you would just present your card to the gateline staff for inspection as you would a paper ticket who would be able to check it in more or less the same way.
 

iansss

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Once you have double tapped in at Redhill the ticket is validated and loaded on to your Key card with the relevant information for your journey available to see via a card reader.

It's quite possible that even if tapping in/out at Dorking Deepene was available, which it's not as it's an FGW station, it still may not open the gates at Dorking. TBH It wouldn't surprise if you had the same result at the barriers with a traditional ticket for the same journey.

If the gates are not opened and manned at Dorking you would just present your card to the gateline staff for inspection as you would a paper ticket who would be able to check it in more or less the same way.

Ah! I hadn't thought through quite how the Key Card should mimick the use of my paper ticket, and I can report that the paper ticket usually opens the gates at Dorking just fine.

So I may try the Key Card ... on a day when I have the time to spare to talk everything through with the long-suffering revenue staff (whose reactions to stressful perplexities vary considerably, as we all know).

Which brings me back to why I'm interested in the Key Card at all.

TICKET MACHINES ARE UNPREDICTABLE
I usually buy paper tickets online, which means collecting them at the TOD machine at the station. There's only one TOD machine at the entrance my side of the station.

If it's not working (unpredictably quite often), I have to descend a steep flight of steps, go under the rail bridge, negotiate a push-button pedestrian road crossing, and hope to find a TOD machine that's free and operational in the main ticket hall.

That eliminates the time advantage of buying online before I set out, even though buying online involves about six (yes SIX) separate screens.

And that's not to mention the period awhile ago when none of the TOD machines would accept my debit card, though the card reader on the ticket office counter happily processed it. That went on for several weeks, apparently until the next scheduled TOD machine service.

How much more convenient to buy online and then collect my ticket by simply touching in at the Key Card Reader?

No, I'm not even going to think about what happens when the Key Card Reader malfunctions. There's only one at the station entrance on my side, so I'd have to...
 

tsr

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Break of journey is permissible (except if conditions of use of a given ticket advise otherwise) at Dorking Deepdene [DPD] and the presence of a ticket on the key card is all that is required to validate this condition. Further to this, the act of needing to change between stations to continue travel is hardly a break of journey, and indeed there should not be any restrictions on this, should a valid ticket and itinerary require it.

The reason why, at least in theory, journeys involving key cards cannot be started or terminated at DPD is in fact that no validators are present. This is hardly surprising as I doubt FGW would currently want to fund such an addition. Ticketing facilities at DPD are in any case staggeringly awful for such a busy little station and show no signs of significant investment.

The purpose of the key validators at Dorking Main [DKG] (which, incidentally, I would not feel obliged to use except at the start or end of a given journey) is to ensure passengers are only allowed access to the trains if they hold a valid ticket, and they should not be used for sole determination of any disputed ticket (inc. key card) validity. If your ticketed itinerary or acceptable journey plan involves break of journey or interchange between stations, and you stick with a reasonable plan, you essentially have every right to board a train.

In addition, in terms of extra fees of some sort due to break-of-journey or interchange issues, these would be implausible on an automatic basis because Southern keyGo pay-as-you-go charges do not apply to this location / area of usage; such an (unknown) fee would have to be charged manually, which I would be surprised about if it was not subject to a discussion first between yourself and Southern/FGW.

Last but not least, the issues at Redhill with the TVMs accepting cards may have been down to the recycled plastic used for some newer debit/credit cards. To resolve this on any other dodgy TVMs in future which cannot accept the slightly different card shape, hold the card into the back of the slot and apply pressure on the card whilst completing the PIN transaction.
 
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SignalsMahler

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Ah! I hadn't thought through quite how the Key Card should mimick the use of my paper ticket, and I can report that the paper ticket usually opens the gates at Dorking just fine.

When you scan a Key card with a point-to-point ticket on it with a hand held reader, it gives you all the same information that a conventional ticket does, ticket type, date validity, restrictions etc. Whether it works the same as a paper ticket on the gateline, the proof is in the pudding, as has been already said it's a scheme that it is still in it's experimental stage, some things work and some don't unfortunately. The use of point-to-point tickets has been where most of the problems with the key card have happened that I've seen, as far as season tickets go, they are much more robust than paper tickets which can sometimes only stay functional for a matter of days.

...even though buying online involves about six (yes SIX) separate screens

I've heard this before, had passengers trying to get seasons loaded on to their keys only to be issued with a booking code for a collection paper ticket just because they neglected to tick a box somewhere in the long drawn out process of buying online :-x It needs simplifying urgently IMO, some sort of easy to use key related smartphone app would be good, they already exist to buy tickets for collection, this could be adapted without a gargantuan struggle I would imagine.

My advice to you if you are going to be buying tickets for your key card and want a hassle free experience whilst traveling is to ensure that you specify the station you are going to be starting your journey at whilst buying first of all. Your ticket can only be loaded on to your key at the station you select online at purchase, remember to tap in twice (successfully, listen for the bleep) at the barriers, the first tap is to load and the second is to validate your ticket and tap out again at the end of your journey as uncompleted journeys can interfere with the loading of subsequent tickets. The only other issue I can think of with point-to-point tickets on the key is that if you don't buy and load/validate them on to your card within a certain amount of time they expire, so buying tickets months in advance is not going to work.

Finally if you have any problem going through the barriers at Dorking on your journey with your key card I'd suggest emailing Southern Customer Services and asking them to pass your complaint on to Southern's key team. In my experience they (the Key team) have been quite successful at sorting out similar issues at stations regarding break of journey before and all my dealings with them have been positive.
 

iansss

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Thank you to everyone who has made constructive suggestions. You've encouraged me to give The Key a go, and I ordered one today. I will report back when I next make one of my irregular trips to Leatherhead.

Like most people, I suspect, I read about The Key as though it was another Oyster, all about tapping in and out everywhere. Southern Customer Services and I both got stuck on this, which is why the lack of a Card Reader at Dorking Deepdene seemed such an issue.

Now I've got it into my head that The Key is really just an electronic copy of whatever ticket you load onto it. So any valid ticket should be ok. It's just that:

(1) You need to initiate it by tapping in at the station where your journey starts

(2) Ideally, you need to be able to tap out at the station where your journey ends ***, even if the barriers are left open.

(3) Along the way, your electronic ticket may be inspected by various Card Readers, either on barriers (for permitted journey breaks) or with revenue staff.

I appreciate that, like Oyster, it's all a lot more involved behind the scenes, but it's useful to me to have a clear concept in mind BEFORE encountering any blips and inconsistencies in implementation.

QUESTION:
If the Card Readers aren't working, can a member of staff tap a ticket in/out using their Card Reader?


remember to tap in twice (successfully, listen for the bleep) at the barriers, the first tap is to load and the second is to validate your ticket

Thank you for highlighting the need to tap twice. I hadn't picked up on this at all.



*** I suppose that, in theory, I could end my journey at Deepdene, so long as I could tap "out" at Dorking Main by leaning across the barrier to use the "exit" Card Reader there?

BTW
At the latest Rail User AGM here, I see that Southern are reported as saying "Ticket Vending Machine technology being upgraded for reliability and better ticketing".
 

SignalsMahler

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(1) You need to initiate it by tapping in at the station where your journey starts

That's right, also double tapping makes sure the new journey is loaded correctly, especially at open barriers where unsuccessful tap-ins might not be as obvious.

(2) Ideally, you need to be able to tap out at the station where your journey ends ***, even if the barriers are left open.

Right again, if your not tapping out with a single journey ticket it can prevent any subsequent journeys getting loaded on to your key card because the previous journey is still on there unresolved. With a season it doesn't matter if you miss tapping in or out just like if you have a zonal travelcard on your oyster.

If the Card Readers aren't working, can a member of staff tap a ticket in/out using their Card Reader?

No, the hand held readers that the staff use just give on overview of what is currently loaded on the card. In the event that the card readers all went down at a station it would be circulated in operational emails the same as instances where ticket buying facilities were not available and similar allowances would be made at destination stations. In case of any irregularities Ticket offices also are able to read much more detailed information from key cards than from hand held readers showing unloaded future tickets and past usage history etc.

That said, it would be very unlikely (but not impossible ofc) that all readers went down at a station that wasn't an un-barriered station with just a stand alone card reader.

I suppose that, in theory, I could end my journey at Deepdene, so long as I could tap "out" at Dorking Main by leaning across the barrier to use the "exit" Card Reader there?

Theoretically yes, I would assume that it would register it as a break of journey, but in practice I couldn't say for certain what the outcome would be.

"Ticket Vending Machine technology being upgraded for reliability and better ticketing".

Probably corporate speak for telling one of the staff to wipe the TVMs touch screen with a damp rag <D
 

tsr

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Now I've got it into my head that The Key is really just an electronic copy of whatever ticket you load onto it. So any valid ticket should be ok.

Sort of the other way round! The electronic ticket is loaded onto the key, the key being the medium of the ticket. The key is not the ticket itself, much in the same way that blank paper ticket stock is not specifically the ticket you require it to be. But I think we both know what we mean! ;)

(1) You need to initiate it by tapping in at the station where your journey starts

(2) Ideally, you need to be able to tap out at the station where your journey ends ***, even if the barriers are left open.

Many stations without barriers will have standalone readers. Ticket barriers may also have these readers (blue plastic devices on a post) mounted next to them, for when they are opened.

(3) Along the way, your electronic ticket may be inspected by various Card Readers, either on barriers (for permitted journey breaks) or with revenue staff.

Yes. Exactly that!

I appreciate that, like Oyster, it's all a lot more involved behind the scenes, but it's useful to me to have a clear concept in mind BEFORE encountering any blips and inconsistencies in implementation.

QUESTION:
If the Card Readers aren't working, can a member of staff tap a ticket in/out using their Card Reader?

There's no need. Staff carry small grey RID (Revenue Inspection Device) readers, which will display "Inspect" if the card has not been tapped in - providing a valid ticket is loaded. The member of staff will then check the electronic ticket, and if it is valid, they may remind you to touch in on future occasions, and in all likelihood will let you go without any further action. This is not a reason to fail to touch in deliberately, as such issues will be flagged up in the back office system and may result in the key card eventually being disabled.

*** I suppose that, in theory, I could end my journey at Deepdene, so long as I could tap "out" at Dorking Main by leaning across the barrier to use the "exit" Card Reader there?

From a practical point of view, I would not expect a lack of tapping out at Dorking Main (which has readers), Deepdene or West to be queried if your ticket would allow you to stop short at a member of the Dorking Stations group. However, you may wish to contact the key smartcard team at Southern if you plan to stop short at Dorking Deepdene on a regular basis, as it may remove any issues with the journey being flagged up on their systems.

The gateline staff at Dorking Main would in all likelihood be rather bemused at your attempts to touch out in such a manner, and probably wouldn't be too keen on you doing so in case the barriers opened in the reverse direction and pushed you backwards. If I were doing it, I wouldn't worry about touching out in that way.

That's right, also double tapping makes sure the new journey is loaded correctly, especially at open barriers where unsuccessful tap-ins might not be as obvious.

That's certainly not correct, especially as a matter of best practice. I haven't seen this on any Southern briefs concerning the key, and it's not a good idea as it is not something the system is designed to do. Barriers will not let you through if they are closed and the touch-in does not work, and if they are open, any mistaken use of the reader will display on the screens - it is better to use the standalone reader if they are open or don't exist. All standalone readers are equipped with digital screens to diagnose any problems with touching in the first time.

Right again, if your not tapping out with a single journey ticket it can prevent any subsequent journeys getting loaded on to your key card because the previous journey is still on there unresolved. With a season it doesn't matter if you miss tapping in or out just like if you have a zonal travelcard on your oyster.

The journey should be expected to be expired at the close of ticket validity, to the best of my knowledge. In any case, key card capacity used by old invalid journeys should be overriden by newer ones if need be. It is not something customers should worry about unless they are significantly abusing the system. As for seasons, it is preferred by Southern and I believe still stated in the T&Cs that touching in and out is required. This is a limitation of the key card and a reason why its use with NRCoC Condition 19 may be problematic.

No, the hand held readers that the staff use just give on overview of what is currently loaded on the card.

Newer RID devices (as above) show journey history for all valid or expired products on the card, as does the DfT-approved ECEBS app, although the RIDs can be a bit confusing in this manner.

In the event that the card readers all went down at a station it would be circulated in operational emails the same as instances where ticket buying facilities were not available and similar allowances would be made at destination stations.

It's rare for that to happen, but you are at least correct on this point.

In case of any irregularities Ticket offices also are able to read much more detailed information from key cards than from hand held readers showing unloaded future tickets and past usage history etc.

As per the above, that's not the case as onboard staff carry RIDs. I haven't actually seen any Southern ticket offices with equipment surpassing the capabilities of RIDs, though I'm happy to be corrected with documented examples. Many still have the old blue MOVie / Handy 440 readers, which are very limited in functionality.

That said, it would be very unlikely (but not impossible ofc) that all readers went down at a station that wasn't an un-barriered station with just a stand alone card reader.

It's happened.

Theoretically yes, I would assume that it would register it as a break of journey, but in practice I couldn't say for certain what the outcome would be.

It should appear somewhere on a back-office system as a break of journey. I would not expect it to be visible - at least without a lot of digging - on any handheld readers.
 
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