Southern EMU order confirmed

[Haydn1971]

I'm a bit surprised that came so quickly, expected that option to be exercised after the first deliveries - any thoughts on if the 225 fleet will be scrapped or moved to another route - Midland Mainline most likely ? Cascading the 22x fleet to CrossCountry, perhaps widening the franchise to cover a few extra central routes.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm a bit surprised that came so quickly, expected that option to be exercised after the first deliveries - any thoughts on if the 225 fleet will be scrapped or moved to another route - Midland Mainline most likely ? Cascading the 22x fleet to CrossCountry, perhaps widening the franchise to cover a few extra central routes.

Possibly better to check out the thread on the IEP order, where it is under discussion:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86876

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes if we can leave discussion around the IEP to the currently active thread and leave this one for the EMU order that would be appreciated

 

[D365]

Guess that the livery is yet to be decided as the Thameslink/South Central franchises will be approaching or at (due for) renewal. Also guess that it has been decided 700 will not be in service soon enough to continue, or maybe it's easier to continue this procurement and try to win back the British public...

[Yes there's the TSGN 'National Express' neutral livery we've seen recently on '700' images but '377/8' will only be on Thameslink for three years, say]

Going by posts here I would presume the specification still requires 110mph. Hopefully Bombardier will have it sorted!

By the time these units become available as the last new Siemens units are in service southern or rather their successors will be wanting to ditch the 313s and 442s so they may not go far. Southeastern are also looking for more.

I, and others, seem to have been considering that...

For those who aren't aware the HQ of Bombardier Transport is in Berlin and the parent company is Bombardier Inc who are a Canadian company.

Maybe this should be pinned as a board notice - at least the *star design is a BR descendant

 

[Class377/5]

Guess that the livery is yet to be decided as the Thameslink/South Central franchises will be approaching or at (due for) renewal. Also guess that it has been decided 700 will not be in service soon enough to continue, or maybe it's easier to continue this procurement and try to win back the British public...

There's always the TSGN livery that we now know. Wouldn't be surprised if they turn up in that especially as they will only be on Thameslink for three years.

 

[joeykins82]

One bit that's struck me about the order, is it not a little short sighted to be ordering DC only units when the Southern/Thameslink franchise will be receiving a ton of new rolling stock which may trigger a cascade, and also when NR are actively investigating whether to adopt a policy of converting the vast majority of the DC network to AC? I know that the Electrostars (and the Desiros) are "easy to convert" to dual voltage but surely it'd be cheaper and less disruptive to just bite the bullet and order dual voltage in the first place?

 

[sprinterguy]

One bit that's struck me about the order, is it not a little short sighted to be ordering DC only units when the Southern/Thameslink franchise will be receiving a ton of new rolling stock which may trigger a cascade, and also when NR are actively investigating whether to adopt a policy of converting the vast majority of the DC network to AC? I know that the Electrostars (and the Desiros) are "easy to convert" to dual voltage but surely it'd be cheaper and less disruptive to just bite the bullet and order dual voltage in the first place?

Where has it been said that this new order is for DC only units? They are being ordered initially for Thameslink, so I would have thought that they will automatically be dual-voltage, like the 377/5s.

 

[D365]

Where has it been said that this new order is for DC only units? They are being ordered initially for Thameslink, so I would have thought that they will automatically be dual-voltage, like the 377/5s.

In any event almost all modern EMUs have been designed with dual-voltage capability. They can be retrofitted with either system or may be delivered as such, including much of the Southern-procured 377 fleet. Adam is completely correct here!

 

[joeykins82]

Apologies, I got a little confused and was referring to the previous order which is still being manufactured but was referred to earlier in the thread:

Bombardier:
377/6 5 car, 26 units (130 cars total) 3rd rail only ex factory. Deliveries starting the the autumn, first few off the production line and in testing already.
377/7 5 car, 8 units (40 cars total) Dual Voltage ex factory. Delivery 2014

This latest order 4 car, 29 units (116 cars total) Deliveries 2015
Option with latest order 4 car, 35 units (140 cars total).

It's the decision to make the 377/6 DC only (at least upon delivery) that struck me as a little strange.

 

[sprinterguy]

Apologies, I got a little confused and was referring to the previous order which is still being manufactured but was referred to earlier in the thread:

It's the decision to make the 377/6 DC only (at least upon delivery) that struck me as a little strange.

Ah ok, I got a little bit mixed up, apologies. Carry on then

 

[D365]

What's stranger is that the current 8 additional units are being numbered in the /7 range rather than 627-34 or 691-99 and that the /5 build didn't just follow on from 215...

[Well here we are anyway, never mind my ramblings...]

But that's not the point. The initial 26x /6 units are fitted DC-only because they are to be used on third-rail only South London metro routes. There's no point going to the expense of fitting AC equipment if you're just going to be shuttling it around for years, à la 375/6. As explained, just fit it when you need it.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Apologies, I got a little confused and was referring to the previous order which is still being manufactured but was referred to earlier in the thread:

It's the decision to make the 377/6 DC only (at least upon delivery) that struck me as a little strange.

Can be converted easily they have everything but the pantograph and a few other bits.

 

[Class377/5]

What's stranger is that the current 8 additional units are being numbered in the /7 range rather than 627-34 or 691-99 and that the /5 build didn't just follow on from 215...

But that's not the point. The initial 26x /6 units are fitted DC-only because they are to be used on third-rail only South London metro routes. There's no point going to the expense of fitting AC equipment if you're just going to be shuttling it around for years, à la 375/6. As explained, just fit it when you need it.

The 377/5 don't follow on from the 377/2 as there are some minor differences, that said no-one knew there'd be another three sub classes of 377's in the future hen they were ordered.

377/7 had to be different from the other dual voltage Electrostars as they are five cars unlike the others which are four cars.

Ironically the dual voltage 377/7 are for use on DC only South London Metro routes to allow more 10 car trains and allowing the 377/2 to stop doing DC only duties and either be used on Milton Keynes or Thameslink services.

Don't forget that the conversion of the DC routes won't start be until the early 2020's at best, when the Electrostars will be hitting their 20th birthday. Even at the best the full conversation of the DC area won't be until the 2050, at which point the Electrostar fleet will long be gone and even the Desiro City fleet will be getting ready to be replaced.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One thing that bothers me about this and other recent EMU orders is that we seem to be sleepwalking back to a 20 metre coach length.
20m is dictated by approaches to the south London terminals, hence Thameslink (319/377) and SWT (450 etc) specified this length.

These constraints don't apply to north London terminals or elsewhere across the country, and most services are today operated by 23m trains (eg DMU classes 158/175/185, EMU classes 323/333).
LM ended up with 20m 350s only because this was originally an SWT 450 order diverted to the WCML and reconfigured.

But now we seem to be ordering more 350s and 377s which will be working well away from the 20m limitation.
Why are we giving up the benefits of longer trains, in terms of capacity and layout, when there is no need?
If the newly electrified lines all end up with 20m stock I think we will have missed a trick somewhere.
The "cost per seat" in 23m trains must be less than that in 20m trains.

 

[jon0844]

hmmm.....

And still the BBC writes that when Bombardier didn't get the contract it resulted in 1400 job cuts.

Most of those were going anyway, so it wasn't the failure to get the contract that made this happen.

 

[tbtc]

One thing that bothers me about this and other recent EMU orders is that we seem to be sleepwalking back to a 20 metre coach length.
20m is dictated by approaches to the south London terminals, hence Thameslink (319/377) and SWT (450 etc) specified this length.

These constraints don't apply to north London terminals or elsewhere across the country, and most services are today operated by 23m trains (eg DMU classes 158/175/185, EMU classes 323/333).
LM ended up with 20m 350s only because this was originally an SWT 450 order diverted to the WCML and reconfigured.

But now we seem to be ordering more 350s and 377s which will be working well away from the 20m limitation.
Why are we giving up the benefits of longer trains, in terms of capacity and layout, when there is no need?
If the newly electrified lines all end up with 20m stock I think we will have missed a trick somewhere.
The "cost per seat" in 23m trains must be less than that in 20m trains.

That is a very good point - one that I'll be honest and admit that I'd not considered.

4x20m (i.e. 80m) isn't going to be a huge increase on 3x23m (69m), as seen by the debate about the 350/4s temporarily replacing 185s at TPE - I'd not considered that this'll be the case on other lines too (if/when these 20m EMUs are freed up from the Southern Region).

 

[Class377/5]

That is a very good point - one that I'll be honest and admit that I'd not considered.

4x20m (i.e. 80m) isn't going to be a huge increase on 3x23m (69m), as seen by the debate about the 350/4s temporarily replacing 185s at TPE - I'd not considered that this'll be the case on other lines too (if/when these 20m EMUs are freed up from the Southern Region).

While its not a massive increase the different is the financial side where as if they went for 23m units then Northern would be stuck with DMU's a there isn't any spare 23m EMU units.

The basic justification of the North West wires was being able to use cheap 20m trains, if they had gone with 23m only then they would have never got the wires at all and they chances of new DMU is expensive at best.

 

[edwin_m]

The leasing companies prefer a 20m unit because it maximises the chances of hiring the train to another TOC elsewhere in the country if the original operator does not renew the lease. This is also one of the reasons why all recent orders have been dual voltage or easily convertable. Less of an issue for DMUs as most of the routes not cleared for 23m stock are south of London - though there are a few elsewhere including some in the Cardiff Valleys.

It would be interesting to know how much infrastructure actually needs changing, and at what cost, to run 23m stock more widely. RSSB have done some studies on gauge but I don't think they've looked at that question. With better infrastructure data and less conservative methods of gauging it's possilble that a lot more of the network could be made accessible to 23m vehicles at relatively low cost. Though of course an operator like Southern they probably wouldn't be interested until all their network was cleared.

Another possible issue is that the 23m stock based on the Mk3 coach dimensions is a bit narrower than 20m stock, which could make a difference particularly with 2+3 seating. Classes 165 and 166 are wider than other 23m stock and therefore more restricted in where they can operate.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The leasing companies prefer a 20m unit because it maximises the chances of hiring the train to another TOC elsewhere in the country if the original operator does not renew the lease. This is also one of the reasons why all recent orders have been dual voltage or easily convertable. Less of an issue for DMUs as most of the routes not cleared for 23m stock are south of London - though there are a few elsewhere including some in the Cardiff Valleys.

It would be interesting to know how much infrastructure actually needs changing, and at what cost, to run 23m stock more widely. RSSB have done some studies on gauge but I don't think they've looked at that question. With better infrastructure data and less conservative methods of gauging it's possilble that a lot more of the network could be made accessible to 23m vehicles at relatively low cost. Though of course an operator like Southern they probably wouldn't be interested until all their network was cleared.

Another possible issue is that the 23m stock based on the Mk3 coach dimensions is a bit narrower than 20m stock, which could make a difference particularly with 2+3 seating. Classes 165 and 166 are wider than other 23m stock and therefore more restricted in where they can operate.

Two restrictions on Thameslink are (or were) the tunnels under St Pancras (also why the 319s had emergency doors in the cab ends), and the "Metropolitan Curve" between Blackfriars and London Bridge.
The St Pancras restriction was removed in the station rebuilding, and I think the Metropolitan one will be removed when the route through London Bridge is remodelled.
It would be interesting to know what TSGN lines are restricted to 20m after all that.

It would be ironic if the route with the most generous loading gauge (GW) ended up with stock designed for the narrowest (319)!

 

[Class377/5]

Two restrictions on Thameslink are (or were) the tunnels under St Pancras (also why the 319s had emergency doors in the cab ends), and the "Metropolitan Curve" between Blackfriars and London Bridge.The St Pancras restriction was removed in the station rebuilding, and I think the Metropolitan one will be removed when the route through London Bridge is remodelled.
It would be interesting to know what TSGN lines are restricted to 20m after all that.

It would be ironic if the route with the most generous loading gauge (GW) ended up with stock designed for the narrowest (319)!

The restriction was on the Moorgate branch, requiring the end doors. Never heard under St Pancras restrictions before.

Like wise what's the issue with Met curve?

 

[anthony263]

I think the main restriction with 23m carriages on the Cardiff Valley Lines network is north of Taffs Wells.

class 158's which I believe have 23m carriages have made it to Radyr and as far north on the Valley Lines as Rhymney.

I am sure I read in a magazine that Network rail were expecting three carriages emu's for the Cardiff valleys with 23m carriages so there may not be too much work to be done to clear 23m carriages

 

[corfield]

What exactly are the GW requirements for "commuter" EMUs ?

Presume to replace 165/166 fleet (which SW bound), but some of their tasks (Oxford/Cotswolds 166s) will be taken on by the GW 5 car IEPs, and presumably Crossrail (even unextended) is taking other services (since is taking the slow lines into Paddington !?).

Some 16X will have to stay for the Downs route.

So what is left, destination and rough unit/coach numbers that a 319 cascade (how many?) or even additional new EMUs will replace ? Trying to get a handle on this as it affects cascade plans, although accepting potential Crossrail extension may eat into GW commuter services more.

Will amy 16Xs be available for Chiltern ? as it's services do need strengthening sooner rather than later.

 

[rebmcr]

presumably Crossrail (even unextended) is taking other services (since is taking the slow lines into Paddington !?).

Crossrail is taking the Crossrail tunnels under Paddington.

 

[JB25]

So when are the 377/6s going to be put into Passenger Service?

Any idea which depot will be getting them first?

 

[starrymarkb]

Crossrail is taking the Crossrail tunnels under Paddington.

True, but before then it is taking over the slows west of Royal Oak with limited slots for anything else

 

[Surreyman]

What exactly are the GW requirements for "commuter" EMUs ?

Presume to replace 165/166 fleet (which SW bound), but some of their tasks (Oxford/Cotswolds 166s) will be taken on by the GW 5 car IEPs, and presumably Crossrail (even unextended) is taking other services (since is taking the slow lines into Paddington !?).

Some 16X will have to stay for the Downs route.

So what is left, destination and rough unit/coach numbers that a 319 cascade (how many?) or even additional new EMUs will replace ? Trying to get a handle on this as it affects cascade plans, although accepting potential Crossrail extension may eat into GW commuter services more.

Will amy 16Xs be available for Chiltern ? as it's services do need strengthening sooner rather than later.

I think this has been covered before, anyway I would hazard a guess that Post electrification/Crossrail i.e 2020 or thereabouts, North Downs + Greenford + maybe Newbury - Bedwyn would need aprox 10 - 12 units depending on how generous a provision of engineering spares.
(The North Downs service is supposed to see a future half hourly through service, when the new platforms at Gatwick & Redhill are built) so could require another 1 or 2 units.
Not sure of the exact timescale for electrification north of Oxford but if later than 2020, maybe allow another 2 units short term.
Ditto for Reading - Basingstoke.

 

[Class377/5]

So when are the 377/6s going to be put into Passenger Service?

Any idea which depot will be getting them first?

Announced plan was four daily diagrams in September with possible earlier start.

However Southern's yet to take one as they've been held back for modifications Southern requested. Actual mods unknown.

They will be tested out of Stewards Lane depot but believe they will be assigned to Selhurst.

All 26 are required for the December timetable change as its a requirement of Southern's franchise.

 

[corfield]

Thanks for reply on retained DMU estimate. Very interesting.

On the flip side, what EMUs will GW need and for what services ? Assuming Crossrail remains as currently planned that is.

As I understand it, Crossrail currently will run on the GW slows until the tunnel portal, but this must affect how much can go into Paddington from further out ?
Crossrail isnt adding any tracks (correct ? they are widening? the line at Slough and my wife's old office building was demolished "for Crossrail") so the GWML slows are to be shared between Crossrail & GW ?
Any extension out to Reading would presumably takeover some of the otherwise retained GW EMU services ?

Actually. Sorry for distracting the thread - trying to understand how the various EMU orders may work cascade wise and what options there are. Hence pondering this in connection with the Southern order and future Thaneslink stock.

 

[anthony263]

FGW will need emu's for the Thames Valley branches as well as local services from Raeading to Bassingstoke/Newbury & Bedwyn as well as for use between Reading & Oxford/Banbury.

Of course with the electric spine some of the GW locals which terminate at Oxford could be extended to Milton Keynes/Bedford. You also have the possibility of local services from Reading to Heathrow although these may be operated by crossrail.

The GW franchise could also use emu's for some services between Bristol & Cardiff/Swansea

 

[JB25]

Hmmm I wonder what the Southern modifications are. I hadn't heard about this.