Southern Doo Dispute

[anonymous0101]

DOO is spreading. Southern are to introduce 442s on Brighton Expresses without a guard. Anyone have an opinion on this one?

 

[devon_metro]

How can DOO operate SDO, as I believe is required for some of the stations 442s stop at?

 

[SouthEastern-465]

I don't really care about them having guards or not aslong as they get me from A to B, also good to see the Class 442s come back.

 

[devon_metro]

Plus, there is a slam door on 442s, which is a definite no-no on a DOO train!

 

[dk1]

Following threats of strike action from RMT due to being in dispute of a 2001 agreement, Southern have apologised & promised DOO will not be extended on the Brighton line.

 

[CarterUSM]

Following threats of strike action from RMT due to being in dispute of a 2001 agreement, Southern have apologised & promised DOO will not be extended on the Brighton line.

Yes I received a couple of e-mails about this, I believe the gatwick service was also mentioned. RMT gave a deadline of friday for southern to withdraw these plans. I'm surprised, although pleased, at their quick climb down all the same.

 

[anonymous0101]

I don't really care about them having guards or not aslong as they get me from A to B, also good to see the Class 442s come back.

Guards are essential for safe and speedy travel on the railway. A driver cannot sort anything out on the train unless its stationary.

 

[thelem]

How can DOO operate SDO, as I believe is required for some of the stations 442s stop at?

I assume this refers to the Victoria - Brighton direct services that are to start using 442s, rather than Gatwick Express services. These are non-stop, so only need to worry about platforms at Victoria and Brighton. The slam doors are not for passenger use.

 

[embers25]

Guards are most definitely not essential for safe and speedy travel as DOO operation worldwide shows. In fact guards invariably slow services down by taking forever to open/close doors due to various reasons (some out of their control). Also how often have we all been delayed awaiting a guard despite having a driver. In my experience, in the case of Southern when the guard does bother to show his/her face they are in the main very friendly and knowledgable. However, in my experience, Southern seem to have the laziest guards on the network with many choosing to lounge in the first class or hide in their cab except for door opening duties and so they are hardly an asset. At least SWT guards wander through the train and offer advice. Admittedly the advice they offer is usually hopelessly wrong and they have no clue about ticket and route validities but at least they don't hide or lounge.
The reality is that DOO is the future and is definitely faster and no less safe but it means less RMT members and so, as we are seeing, DOO conversion leads to strike action as yet again the RMT hold the nation to ransom citing ficticious safety concerns. Why should we all pay higher train fares just to pay for pointless, lazy and arrogant guards? With barriered stations and RPI squads their role becomes even more pointless.

 

[CarterUSM]

Guards are most definitely not essential for safe and speedy travel as DOO operation worldwide shows. In fact guards invariably slow services down by taking forever to open/close doors due to various reasons (some out of their control). Also how often have we all been delayed awaiting a guard despite having a driver. In my experience, in the case of Southern when the guard does bother to show his/her face they are in the main very friendly and knowledgable. However, in my experience, Southern seem to have the laziest guards on the network with many choosing to lounge in the first class or hide in their cab except for door opening duties and so they are hardly an asset. At least SWT guards wander through the train and offer advice. Admittedly the advice they offer is usually hopelessly wrong and they have no clue about ticket and route validities but at least they don't hide or lounge.
The reality is that DOO is the future and is definitely faster and no less safe but it means less RMT members and so, as we are seeing, DOO conversion leads to strike action as yet again the RMT hold the nation to ransom citing ficticious safety concerns. Why should we all pay higher train fares just to pay for pointless, lazy and arrogant guards? With barriered stations and RPI squads their role becomes even more pointless.

You're kidding yourself on if you think you'll get lower fares with guards gone. Not so sure about the pointless, lazy and arrogant part either, I take a bit of pride in my work and duties. I'll assume you meant some.

 

[Fincra5]

The 442s will be on some offpeak express workings and could do DOO but i think its in the Contract with the Union that a guard has to be present on these trains. Not sure though.

 

[westcoaster]

the actual southern agreament is the maximun number of coaches for doo services is 9 cars ( this is all to do with how much infomation the brain can take in at once i.e looking at to many doo screens, theoreically you could miss something, as your eyes cant look everywhere at once.), a double 442 is 10 cars.

 

[radamfi]

Following threats of strike action from RMT due to being in dispute of a 2001 agreement, Southern have apologised & promised DOO will not be extended on the Brighton line.

I thought guards were not required on Southern services 9 coaches or less between Victoria/London Bridge and Brighton, as long as the train doesn't leave that line (so guards required to Hove, Eastbourne, Horsham etc.)

FCC don't have guards the whole route between Brighton and Bedford.

 

[ChrisCooper]

the actual southern agreament is the maximun number of coaches for doo services is 9 cars ( this is all to do with how much infomation the brain can take in at once i.e looking at to many doo screens, theoreically you could miss something, as your eyes cant look everywhere at once.), a double 442 is 10 cars.

Erm, so if the driver can't manage to look all along a >9 car train at once with the aid of DOO monitors, why is the guard with just their eyes any better? I really can't see the logic in that beyond some way to justify keeping guards. It's not like on a 10 or more car train the driver operates half the doors and the guard the other half. Also, I'd like to know how 442 guards can check the 5 doors behind them at the same time as the 14 in front. Eyes in the backs of their heads? Scanning a bank of CCTV monitors is much easier. The main reason TOCs often use guards for longer trains is that DOO equipment isn't set up to handle them (e.g not enough cameras and monitors) and it's cheaper to use guards on longer trains than to fit adequate DOO equipment given that on many routes only a small number of trains would run at maximum length. The other option is to use platform staff to dispatch long trains.

 

[DavyCrocket]

The current Brighton Expresses and Gatwick Expresses don't have guards. The latter have revenue collection staff between Gatwick and London and a Southern conductor south of Brighton.

Personally I like that the majority of Southern services have a conductor on and most do a pretty good job at being visible and helping customers (especially with trains that dived en route!).
They also go some way to reduce anti social behaviour and provide reassurance to customers in general. I'd also rather have a conductor than a security guard on a train.

 

[radamfi]

Will guards be required on FCC when Thameslink Route trains get extended to 12 coaches?

 

[313103]

I don't really care about them having guards or not aslong as they get me from A to B, also good to see the Class 442s come back.

thank you very much, glad you think like that. Also glad that you dont work on the railways or intend to do so, because with an attitude like that there wont be any job for you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Guards are most definitely not essential for safe and speedy travel as DOO operation worldwide shows. In fact guards invariably slow services down by taking forever to open/close doors due to various reasons (some out of their control). Also how often have we all been delayed awaiting a guard despite having a driver. In my experience, in the case of Southern when the guard does bother to show his/her face they are in the main very friendly and knowledgable. However, in my experience, Southern seem to have the laziest guards on the network with many choosing to lounge in the first class or hide in their cab except for door opening duties and so they are hardly an asset. At least SWT guards wander through the train and offer advice. Admittedly the advice they offer is usually hopelessly wrong and they have no clue about ticket and route validities but at least they don't hide or lounge.
The reality is that DOO is the future and is definitely faster and no less safe but it means less RMT members and so, as we are seeing, DOO conversion leads to strike action as yet again the RMT hold the nation to ransom citing ficticious safety concerns. Why should we all pay higher train fares just to pay for pointless, lazy and arrogant guards? With barriered stations and RPI squads their role becomes even more pointless.

Dear Embers how the hell do you know if i am arrogant, lazy or pointless? You for a start dont know who i am but you percive me to be one of the above, i will be polite and say you are Masturbator, selfish and could well be something that sometimes someone treads in on the floor. That is my opioion of you even though i dont know who you and frankly would not want to meet you.

Have you reported to Southern that you have seen Guards lazing around in first class (i know the answer already so dont bother replying on that one).
Rather then trying to be clever and mentioning things on a internet why dont you just report the matter, at least the company would have a good reason to get rid of the Guards (oh and my job)................. Thanks

As an aside the OP has posted this thread after Southern and RMT had concluding discussions on the operation of class 442 10 car units, of which Southern had said it was an error on there part. So all the frothing over nothing new can stop.

 

[reb0118]

I don't really care about them having guards or not aslong as they get me from A to B, also good to see the Class 442s come back.

Pathetic

 

[Fincra5]

Pathetic

Seems a bit harsh.

 

[reb0118]

Guards are most definitely not essential for safe and speedy travel as DOO operation worldwide shows. In fact guards invariably slow services down by taking forever to open/close doors due to various reasons (some out of their control). Also how often have we all been delayed awaiting a guard despite having a driver. In my experience, in the case of Southern when the guard does bother to show his/her face they are in the main very friendly and knowledgeable. However, in my experience, Southern seem to have the laziest guards on the network with many choosing to lounge in the first class or hide in their cab except for door opening duties and so they are hardly an asset. At least SWT guards wander through the train and offer advice. Admittedly the advice they offer is usually hopelessly wrong and they have no clue about ticket and route validity but at least they don't hide.
The reality is that DOO is the future and is definitely faster and no less safe but it means less RMT members and so, as we are seeing, DOO conversion leads to strike action as yet again the RMT hold the nation to ransom citing fictitious safety concerns. Why should we all pay higher train fares just to pay for pointless, lazy and arrogant guards? With barriered stations and RPI squads their role becomes even more pointless.

Another Internet hero. I would like to show you how "pointless, lazy, & arrogant" my right hook is. However that would take me down to your level.

Please think in future before insulting somebodies whole career. The vast majority of people who post here - passengers, enthusiasts, & yes rail staff feel passionate about the railways - we don't need insults from you.

ps I've corrected your spelling mistakes.

Cheers.

 

[ungreat]

You're kidding yourself on if you think you'll get lower fares with guards gone. Not so sure about the pointless, lazy and arrogant part either, I take a bit of pride in my work and duties. I'll assume you meant some.

They don't understand mate,and never will..we run 12 car 365s with no guard and I think its dangerous.You need two mininum on any train.I hate DOO and would gladly take a pay cut to get a guard back on our trains

 

[anonymous0101]

Erm, so if the driver can't manage to look all along a >9 car train at once with the aid of DOO monitors, why is the guard with just their eyes any better? I really can't see the logic in that beyond some way to justify keeping guards. It's not like on a 10 or more car train the driver operates half the doors and the guard the other half. Also, I'd like to know how 442 guards can check the 5 doors behind them at the same time as the 14 in front. Eyes in the backs of their heads? Scanning a bank of CCTV monitors is much easier. The main reason TOCs often use guards for longer trains is that DOO equipment isn't set up to handle them (e.g not enough cameras and monitors) and it's cheaper to use guards on longer trains than to fit adequate DOO equipment given that on many routes only a small number of trains would run at maximum length. The other option is to use platform staff to dispatch long trains.

Wow lots of anti-guard sentiment here. I can think of many TOC's that use guards irrespective of train length. South West Trains is a good example, and South Eastern outside of the Metro areas. Also on London Midland. But we all know that anyway.

Why is it better that guards do the doors? Isn't it blatently obvious? Once the train has stopped Guards have the main responsability of checking the doors are clear and the signal is off. Why should the driver have to worry about doors and people getting stuck in addition to driving the train? The driver drives, and the guard does the doors. Simple As.

And what happens if something occurs during the journey such as a blocked toilet or someone being taken ill? There's not a lot a driver can do until the next station. At least a guard can take care of the situation personally.

ChrisCooper - Do you work on the railway? Have you even worked a busy train? If you don't you have no idea about CCTV and dispatching trains. Sorry.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I've been browsing this forum and it seems embers is a bit of a troll on the quiet, so I shall give his comments the contempt they deserve.

I for one am more than happy and find it preferable to have a guard/train manager on board, it gives us the travelling public some reassurance when things go wrong; As for DOO I try my best not to use DOO services, I don't like it as there is only the driver on board and what happens if he gets incapacitated? We're on our own.

Anyway, as for the 442s being DOO operated, what are they going to do about the brake van door which is manual, I would have thought as a 442 is primarily a power operated train, that would have to be interlocked. Yes?

Would that door have to be permanently locked shut?
Which is not really feasible as it being where people put luggage and bikes, so need access all of the time. I therefore believe that the idea is fundamentally flawed.

 

[embers25]

I did put "in my experience" and specifically didn't say "all guards" as I realise there are "some" that work so while correcting my spelling or making smart remarks, maybe you should actually read all the words. I have travelled extensively on Southern and have complained both on train and off to no avail (although I note it's ok for you to assume that I didn't, bit of a double standard) as all those I encounter just don't care. In fact with an attitude worst than when Connex which is astounding. I apologise for the spelling mistakes...however it's quite funny that my argument is apparently so wrong and yet the biggest fault you find with it is spelling! You may not agree with my opinion based on my experiences but why should your biased opinion be any better or more accurate than mine We're each entitled to express our opinions even though I don't agree at all with your's.

 

[Pumbaa]

I find myself halfway between the two here. I think DOO with an onboard ticket examiner is the way forward, much like SPT services and the new ScotRail Airdrie-Bathgate link. My reasoning is similar to embers25; most of the guards I've come across are lazy and unwilling to be seen. I'm not saying that all guards are; the best guards I've met are in the North and I'm sure CarterUSM and 313013 are both very good at their jobs, and take pride in it.

However, yes Southern guards tend to be very lazy, and are just one of many TOCs whose employees don't seem that bothered. London Midland are the worst I think; I have to suffer them here in Liverpool, even after moving up from down South, and it's rare to see an onboard member of staff. There are some who religiously patrol the train, check tickets and and talk to pax, but they're rare. Northern guards are the best in my experience, along with TPE.

Agreeing with ChrisCooper, with services that mainly have platform dispatch, a guard's role is somewhat relegated. What can the Guard do in response to being given the tip that the Driver can't? It makes no sense.

If DOO wasn't safe, it wouldn't be in use. Obviously non-DOO is safer, but if DOO really was that unsafe, we'd see shedloads of media stories and crank stories about things that have gone wrong. Obviously you'll have a far greater volume of tales within DOO depots, but that's to be expected.

 

[Greenback]

Is there any relationship between the commission rate offered by certain TOC's and the alleged laziness of the guards?

How woudl request stops work without guards? Would the passenger have to ring a bell like a bus? How would they know when to press the next stop button?

 

[anonymous0101]

Talking about ticket examiners, if they did replace guards on board train services, who is to say they wouldn't also be allegedly lazy as well? Is there any inherent reason why a TE is more likely to check tickets and be visible than the guard? Maybe on rural services with request stops the Driver should sell tickets as well. After all bus drivers do that?

If TE's did replace guards they would be on a lower salary - the exception is on HS1 where they still get 25k+. Does this mean that Guards are overpaid compared with say bus drivers who have more responsability or do they?

 

[SouthEastern-465]

Pathetic

Keep your snide comments to yourself, we all have a view and try to respect them and see where I am coming from.

And 313103 I didn't mean to offend you and apologise in advance as in my last comment I forgot to mention as long as my journeys safe and its under the rules, as a passengers point of view aslong as I get to my destination guard or not I couldn't care less aslong as it was safe and comftable.

But I might think diffrently if I actually worked in the railway industry.

 

[Pumbaa]

@Greenback - I think companies that do not offer commission to guards selling tickets seem to have the 'lazier' guards. LM/Southern don't; SWT have commercial/non-commercial guards, aka Guards and ticket inspectors; Virgin have a very low commission rate and their TMs are unwilling usually to walk through Standard more than once.

One way to get round this obviously is to lower the basic pay rate, and increase commission to encourage guards to be more pro-active in their presence throughout the train.

@anonymous0101 - I think my last part answers your points too. Lowering basic pay would encourage guards to be more-proactive. In their current roles, I think Guards are paid too little, especially compared to drivers. Drivers have been offered constant wage increases, mostly at the same rate above inflation, but guards have been offered comparatively little. But I think that results from TOCs and parent companies wanting to take as much money into their shareholders pockets than to invest in their staff.

So while my first two points may seem at odds with each other - lower Guards basic salary and increase commission to encourage them to have a greater presence; give Guards a higher overall salary - I am a firm believer in rewarding staff for good work, and would say that the greatest asset to my firm are happy and content staff. Most staff on here love their job (not all the time) but hate management and the parent companies. That's inherent throughout the rail industry in UK I think.

Thus I come to the conclusion that as Guards are not (on the whole in my experience, this is not FACT) doing a satisfactory job, and that as travellers would be better off with a member of staff who's prerogative is to remain visible in the train at all times and not carry out guarding duties, leaving those to the Driver and platform staff, my preferred solution would be to employ a method of DOO with an onboard ticket examiner.

 

[CarterUSM]

If the guard is doing his job properly then he/she will be visible during the journey anyway, I patrol my train every half am hour or so if i'm not doing a ticket check. I cannot dispute that DOO gives greater operational flexibility for TOC's, but I am not a fan of manning trains on the cheap either. Let the driver drive, I think they have enough to do as it is. Of course i'm biased, I will not deny it, I like my job and I want to keep it, but it is patently obvious the TOC's and various others don't. Money talks.