Southern Day Save & Freedom Pass

[cjp]

Just a couple of quickies:-
a) I think combining a Pass and DaySave the train does not need to stop at the boundary station agreed?
and
b) given that the off peak daysave is only valid after after 10am and the fast (Brighton) train does not stop at the station at the limit of Freedom Pass zone how do you think the guard would view the passing times from RTT rather than the 0953 departure from East Croydon?
(I think it is probably not worth asking for trouble but I am interested and have been trying to work out where the train will be at 1000hrs. And for that matter where it goes after Purley)

schedule Information

WTT schedule UID W71783, identity 1A72
Runs SSuX between 10/12/2012 to 06/12/2013
Service code 24663004
Express Passenger

Operational Information

Schedule from ITPS
Timed for 100mph max
Electric Multiple Unit

Passenger Information

Seating: first & standard
Reservations available

WTT GBTT Realtime Route Allowances
Location Pl Arr Dep Arr Dep Arr Dep Dly Line Path Eng Pth Prf
London Victoria 15 0936 0936 0936 FL
Battersea Pier Jn. pass 0938 pass 0938
Battersea Park pass 0938½ pass 0938
Pouparts Jn pass 0939½ pass 0939
Clapham Junction 13 0941 0942½ 0941 0942 0941 0942 FL
Wandsworth Common pass 0944½ pass 0943
Balham 3 pass 0945 pass 0944
Streatham North Jn pass 0946½ pass 0946 ½
Streatham Common pass 0947 pass 0946
Norbury pass 0948 pass 0947
Thornton Heath pass 0949½ pass 0948
Selhurst 3 pass 0950 pass 0949
Windmill Bridge Jn pass 0950½ pass 0949 RVF
East Croydon 2 0951½ 0953 0952 0953 0950 0953 FL
South Croydon pass 0954½ pass 0954
Purley Oaks pass 0955½ pass 0955
Purley 2 pass 0956½ pass 0956
Stoats Nest Jn. pass 0957½ pass 0957 QL
Earlswood (Surrey) pass 1003 pass 1003 FL

And is there really 100mph running along line?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Yes you could use both under condition 19a imo, as they are both zonal by the definition given in the NRCoC (though some people seem to not care about those anymore).

However, your problem is where they meet and when the Daysave becomes valid. Using passing timings is dubious, using passing times for junctions is beyond dubious, but in this case even more so because the last place you Freedom pass is actually valid by that service is Purley.

Stoats nest Junction is where the Quarry Lines (the fast lines) diverge from (or converge on, depending on your point of view) the Redhill Lines (slow lines), they meet/diverge at Earlswood at the other end. Coulsdon South is on the Redhill Line, but the fast service will go down the Quarry Line (no stations).

So, given the train passes Purley before 1000hrs and does not go to Coulsdon South, your combination is not valid on that service.

In answer to your final question, there is a stretch of 100mph line between Gatwick and Three Bridges and between Three Bridges and Balcombe Tunnel Junction (Three Bridges station is 90mph I believe)

 

[cjp]

Yes you could use both under condition 19a imo, as they are both zonal by the definition given in the NRCoC (though some people seem to not care about those anymore).

However, your problem is where they meet and when the Daysave becomes valid. Using passing timings is dubious, using passing times for junctions is beyond dubious, but in this case even more so because the last place you Freedom pass is actually valid by that service is Purley.

Stoats nest Junction is where the Quarry Lines (the fast lines) diverge from (or converge on, depending on your point of view) the Redhill Lines (slow lines), they meet/diverge at Earlswood at the other end. Coulsdon South is on the Redhill Line, but the fast service will go down the Quarry Line (no stations).

Thank for agreeing the first part
I am inclined to agree with you on the second part
And thank you for the info on the route QL= Quarry line= fast line.

My cup runneth over!

 

[ModernRailways]

Whilst it probably isn't best practice, you could always go down as far as possible on your freedom pass whilst also making sure you catch the next train, and then asking the guard if it's possible to continue on your journey.

When I did a Daysave, there was a train at 0954 from Victoria, as we were there early we decided to just ask the guard if it would be possible to hop on, and he just said 'Oh yeah, no bother.' Obviously some may be fussy, but if the train is relatively quiet then they are likely to say Yes.

 

[Sacro]

There's nowhere faster than 90mph on VTB (Victoria to Brighton).

 

[johnnycache]

I don't think Daysave can be regarded as a zonal ticket for the purposes of condition 19 (of the National Conditions of Carriage) as it is issued from a named station to any Southern station without reference to any zones

Its not totally clear to be that the Freedom Pass qualifies either-

Under 19a it could be considered zonal

Under 19c it might be a travel pass issued by a local authority (and thus not valid) but could possibly be a leisure pass

I think it would be worth clarifying all this!

 

[John @ home]

I don't think Daysave can be regarded as a zonal ticket for the purposes of condition 19 (of the National Conditions of Carriage) as it is issued from a named station to any Southern station without reference to any zones

“Zonal Tickets” are defined in NRCoC Appendix A(w) as “tickets which permit travel only within a defined area”. Southern DaySave tickets (and other Day Rangers) fit this definition.

Its not totally clear to be that the Freedom Pass qualifies either-

Under 19a it could be considered zonal

I agree. It is zonal. It corresponds with the definition above.

Under 19c it might be a travel pass issued by a local authority (and thus not valid) but could possibly be a leisure pass

We have debated the issue of whether Freedom passes are issued on behalf of a local authority. It has been asserted that, while the scheme is funded by local authorities, it is co-ordinated by and passes are issued on behalf of London Councils, formerly the London Boroughs Association, which is not a local authority.

The Freedom Pass appears to be treated as an Off-Peak Season Ticket. It would be its Season Ticket status which would prevent it meeting the definition in NRCoC 19 of a “leisure travel pass”.

I think it would be worth clarifying all this!

Agreed.

 

[johnnycache]

I will contact ATOC and see if they can give a view on these points

I will also contact Southern specifically on Daysave issues