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"Southern Crossrail"

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HarleyDavidson

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If you want to go from Guildford to stations in Kent, then electrify the Reigate to Guildford section, build a flyover at Redhill and hey presto job done at a fraction of the cost.

Hold on, that's what BR used to do with the old Tadpole units! Reading - Tonbridge.
 
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MarkyT

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A link at Waterloo itself could be fairly easy it has to be said, but it's the rather dismissive mention of 'flyovers between Battersea and Waterloo' that reveals a lack of thought as to which services would actually be joined across such a link. Thameslink via London Bridge worked as a concept because from a very early stage planners had a very good idea of which services had to cross over which others and, whilst precise details might have changed over the years of development and deferment, the basic forms of the Borough Market widening and Bermondsey grade separation were understood right from day one. I see no such detailed consideration in the Southern Cross proposal. Also the proposal makes reference to local services out to Dartford and Sevenoaks, but mention of longer distance Kent services currently using Charing Cross is notable by it's absence. They'd have to go somewhere else seeing as Charing Cross would close, and where exactly in the South Western local network they would terminate is not considered at all. To me, bolting South Western and South Eastern long distance services across the link would seem to be a recipe for poor performance right across the network and should be avoided at all costs. Capacity of 160 trains an hour is also mentioned, a greatly overstated figure. Even at proposed Thameslink core capacity no more than 96 an hour would be possible in total over the four tracks (I assume) proposed, and there's no room to widen the formation through Southwark without major demolition. Not least of the challenges for this scheme would be the four track section through Southwark including the recent Thameslink widening over Borough Market, where existing Charing Cross services will run over a dedicated pair alongside another dedicated Thameslink pair. So even with four tracks, if Southern Cross was to co-exist with Thameslink (via London Bridge) then this section would need to be widened again to six tracks - can't see that being popular with the locals so soon after recent and ongoing works. Thameslink is a clever scheme where a modest intervention could deliver transformational benefits, yet without tearing up the entire historical South Eastern service pattern. Whilst superficially Southern Cross seems a similar relatively small scheme, the ramification across the entire South Western and South Eastern networks make it much bigger than its promoters realise, both from infrastructure engineering and operational perspectives. As such any benefits it might achieve have to be weighed against vary much larger costs and difficulties than assumed.
 
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Sunset route

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27 Oct 2015
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They will carry on through brand new tunnels from Charing Cross to Marylebone and end up in Birmingham on a freshly wired up chiltern line ;)

I thought I might of caught that in the very very small print after the T&Cs lmao :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Then we have South Eastern is moving towards 12 car suburban and South Western is only just moving to 10 car suburban, so either one half gets reduced length or the other is going to have to start rebuilding platforms again.
 

Busaholic

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alternatively there is a convenient space underground at Moorgate with a platform level of cicra 72m below street level<D

Yes, if I'm getting what you're alluding to, with an extension to Cannon Street you have an alternative Thameslink route should the Blackfriars routeing be fouled up. Shame that the Farringdon works make that notion impossible now - mind you, converting Moorgate to Farringdon to third rail would be the absolute clincher to block it.:lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A link at Waterloo itself could be fairly easy it has to be said, but it's the rather dismissive mention of 'flyovers between Battersea and Waterloo' that reveals a lack of thought as to which services would actually be joined across such a link. Thameslink via London Bridge worked as a concept because from a very early stage planners had a very good idea of which services had to cross over which others and, whilst precise details might have changed over the years of development and deferment, the basic forms of the Borough Market widening and Bermondsey grade separation were understood right from day one. I see no such detailed consideration in the Southern Cross proposal. Also the proposal makes reference to local services out to Dartford and Sevenoaks, but mention of longer distance Kent services currently using Charing Cross is notable by it's absence. They'd have to go somewhere else seeing as Charing Cross would close, and where exactly in the South Western local network they would terminate is not considered at all. To me, bolting South Western and South Eastern long distance services across the link would seem to be a recipe for poor performance right across the network and should be avoided at all costs. Capacity of 160 trains an hour is also mentioned, a greatly overstated figure. Even at proposed Thameslink core capacity no more than 96 an hour would be possible in total over the four tracks (I assume) proposed, and there's no room to widen the formation through Southwark without major demolition. Not least of the challenges for this scheme would be the four track section through Southwark including the recent Thameslink widening over Borough Market, where existing Charing Cross services will run over a dedicated pair alongside another dedicated Thameslink pair. So even with four tracks, if Southern Cross was to co-exist with Thameslink (via London Bridge) then this section would need to be widened again to six tracks - can't see that being popular with the locals so soon after recent and ongoing works. Thameslink is a clever scheme where a modest intervention could deliver transformational benefits, yet without tearing up the entire historical South Eastern service pattern. Whilst superficially Southern Cross seems a similar relatively small scheme, the ramification across the entire South Western and South Eastern networks make it much bigger than its promoters realise, both from infrastructure engineering and operational perspectives. As such any benefits it might achieve have to be weighed against vary much larger costs and difficulties than assumed.

As you say, the disbenefits far outweigh any notional benefits - for every person wanting to get from Lewisham to Clapham Junction for which it might help, there'd be twenty still wanting to get to Charing Cross from Lewisham. Actually, the only benefits are to SW passengers, who will also be getting Crossrail 2 at some stage, whereas SE passengers have only a slightly better service once the London Bridge works have finished to look forward to.
 

Southern

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Yes, if I'm getting what you're alluding to, with an extension to Cannon Street you have an alternative Thameslink route should the Blackfriars routeing be fouled up. Shame that the Farringdon works make that notion impossible now - mind you, converting Moorgate to Farringdon to third rail would be the absolute clincher to block it.:lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


As you say, the disbenefits far outweigh any notional benefits - for every person wanting to get from Lewisham to Clapham Junction for which it might help, there'd be twenty still wanting to get to Charing Cross from Lewisham. Actually, the only benefits are to SW passengers, who will also be getting Crossrail 2 at some stage, whereas SE passengers have only a slightly better service once the London Bridge works have finished to look forward to.

Lewisham - Clapham? Surely possible changing from Southeastern to LO at Denmark Hill ;)
 

swt_passenger

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Would it be cheaper than this proposal to reinstate the Eurostar link to the Chatham Main Line?

That would do nothing to provide through services in stead of terminating services, so no. In any case, as is fairly widely known, the former international platforms are already accounted for by the current changes driven by the Waterloo capacity upgrade.
 

edwin_m

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This thread is a dismal failure. Nobody has found a way of incorporating the Waterloo and City Line yet.
 

Busaholic

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Lewisham - Denmark Hill is only half-hourly though, making it a potentially very long wait in the eastbound direction.

I understand these services are always the first to go in the event of any problems, just like the halfhourly South London Line before it. Anyway, regardless, it's all a load of hot air.
 

DerekC

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alternatively there is a convenient space underground at Moorgate with a platform level of cicra 72m below street level<D

Something a bit wrong with the depth figure - Hampstead is advertised as the deepest tube station at 59m, so this would be a record - or maybe I am missing the subtlety!
 

hwl

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Something a bit wrong with the depth figure - Hampstead is advertised as the deepest tube station at 59m, so this would be a record - or maybe I am missing the subtlety!

No it would indeed be a record as the Northern City at Moorgate has the Crossrail escalators beyond the buffers so would need new platforms far deeper than the existing ones...
 
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