"Southern Crossrail"

[3141]

The latest newsletter form the Environmental Transport Association (ETA) announces Southern Crossrail. It’s a “very inexpensive” £5.9 billion scheme to build a link between Waterloo and Waterloo East, enabling trains to run through from South West London to destinations in the South East, and increase the capacity of Waterloo.

“Read about it here first,” says the ETA, but actually somebody proposed it on these forums two or three years ago – I haven’t been able to find the original thread.

They provide a link to enable you to support their proposal and to donate to it. They don’t provide a link if you’d prefer to oppose it.

In passing, they mention the closure of Charing Cross and possibly Cannon Street. Waterloo East would also close. They don’t say how Waterloo’s concourse would cope with all the additional passengers. They do say that passengers for the West End can change to the Jubilee Line at London Bridge.

Here’s the link: https://www.eta.co.uk/trust/souther...=Sneek Email Marketing Software&utm_term=here

I’ll post a section of the text but I can’t include all of it as there are several diagrams and a video as well.

"London’s railways are already bursting and new rail lines are not being built fast enough. A quick and simple alteration to London Waterloo station will double its capacity and dramatically improve the daily commute for millions.

"Southern Crossrail involves converting part of Waterloo into a through station. This will avoid the jam caused by trains having to enter a terminus station and reversing out. On four platforms the trains will continue on to London Bridge station via a short section of bridge.
"Not many people realise that trains did at one time travel from Waterloo to Waterloo East. Under the proposal for Southern Crossrail, the alignment of that original single track would be followed by three parallel tracks straight from one station to the other. This allows up to 160 trains an hour to pass through Waterloo – an increase in capacity that would have a transformative effect on transport south of London.
"Currently trains from London’s south east are separated from trains from London’s south west, but Southern Crossrail would allow trains from Windsor, Guildford, Dorking and Surbiton to pass rapidly though Waterloo to Bromley, Dartford and Sevenoaks."

 

[nlogax]

So, effectively returning to the mid 1800s..?

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2011/the-waterloo-link/

 

[HSTEd]

Well it is certainly a rather.... innovative proposal.

Not sure I believe the capacity improvements though, just how many through platforms are they proposing?

 

[rebmcr]

I hear Crayola are major shareholders in this project.

 

[gordonthemoron]

they could make a fortune flogging off Charing Cross and Cannon Street, not sure City commuters would be that pleased though

 

[hwl]

they could make a fortune flogging off Charing Cross and Cannon Street, not sure City commuters would be that pleased though

The air rights were flogged off long ago...

They seem to have no clue about Waterloo, Thameslink or London Bridge rebuild the later 2 which would preclude closing CST as it is the wrong side of the future TL tracks and suggest ending trains to Blackfriars as everyone obviously wants to go to Waterloo from the east when the data doesn't support this!

Which kindergarden have they escaped from with their crayons?

4 through platforms proposed by London Bridge couldn't handle that without another rebuild and they want to close Waterloo East.

They really have no clue about where passengers want to go!

 

[tbtc]

We discussed this a few months ago (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122904)

Charing Cross has over forty million passengers a year, Cannon Street has over twenty million passengers a year - how do you deal with over sixty million journeys into central London?

Dump them at Waterloo/ London Bridge and hope that there's spare capacity on the Underground? Last time I was on the Jubilee, there wasn't a lot of space to swing a kitten...

Waterloo has over a hundred million passengers a year - how do you knock half the station down without seriously inconveniencing a significant number of those passengers?

Which services do you run through Waterloo towards London Bridge? The OP's quote says "Southern Crossrail would allow trains from Windsor, Guildford, Dorking and Surbiton to pass rapidly though Waterloo to Bromley, Dartford and Sevenoaks", but you'd need a lot of complicated grade separation if you wanted to allow Windsor and Guildford to have direct services through to the other side of Waterloo.

How do you justify yet more spending, when London Bridge passengers have had years of disruption already?

I can kind of see the logic (through platforms are much more efficient - you can get far more passengers/services from two through platforms of Thameslink/ Crossrail than you can get from two terminus platforms at Waterloo/ Cannon Street/ Charing Cross), but it's an idea that seems more driven by operational efficiency than considering where passengers want to go.

Spending billions to allow services to avoid "central" London (i.e. the bit north of the river) and dumping millions of passengers onto the Underground so they can cross the Thames seems a fairly low priority to me!

(this is not a dig at 3141 by the way, just at the whole concept)

I hear Crayola are major shareholders in this project.

 

[Western Lord]

Please, April 1st was weeks ago.

 

[HSTEd]

It is only 700m from Waterloo to Charing Cross, you could just convert the railway alignment into a very broad covered walkway with multiple parallel travellators in each direction.

 

[Deepgreen]

Noting the forum joining date of the OP, I like this idea. I suggest a pedestrian level crossing would be best for where the new connection would divide the terminus concourse in two.

 

[telstarbox]

Leaving aside the infrastructure flaws, they've misunderstood why Crossrail 1 is useful and this isn't.

Crossrail 1 has large traffic generators on either side of Central London - Heathrow Airport to the west and Canary Wharf and the Stratford development zone to the east, as well as the stations in the centre itself. It's cutting down journey times as well as introducing new direct routes.

Guildford and Dartford generate more outbound than inbound trips - most people want to go from Guildford to London every morning than vice versa. A through service between the two may be handy but it won't generate a lot of trips, and it won't significantly reduce the journey time compared to going round the M25.

 

[HSTEd]

I think they are primarily justifying it on the basis of the operational savings that through trains have.

The ones that helped justify Thameslink when it was cobbled together from existing infrastructure.

 

[30907]

I think they are primarily justifying it on the basis of the operational savings that through trains have.

The ones that helped justify Thameslink when it was cobbled together from existing infrastructure.

Existing infrastructure being the key phrase.

 

[The Ham]

The problem is that they are proposing a £5 billion link between Waterloo and London Bridge, which they claim will allow more trains. However they don't propose how they are going to get more capacity to get more trains to Waterloo and/or London Bridge.

 

[ijmad]

This seems poorly thought out.

• 43 million people a year (117k per day) currently using Charing Cross get dumped on the underground at London Bridge. Yeah, that's going to work.
• Disrupting an already busy Waterloo concourse by putting at least two (actually probably four or six given the required dwell time of the trains) tracks through it by making people go up and then down a bunch of escalators, plus the multiple train-sized holes you'd need to cut through Waterloo's listed frontage.
• You can't just route all of the Charing Cross trains out of the existing throat of Waterloo, so where are they going to go exactly? Same problem at London Bridge. You could connect existing services but what would the dwell time at Waterloo and London Bridge need to be given most of the peak passengers are going to alight here?

Surely a much more sensible idea for a future Crossrail would be to connect Waterloo to Euston through a tunnel (via Tottenham Court Road for CR1/CR2 interchange) with new deep platforms at Waterloo to get the trains under the river.

Either that or connect terminating services at Waterloo with terminating services at London Bridge through a tunnel or via an elevated viaduct at street level. Doesn't sound hugely valuable though.

 

[nlogax]

Surely the obvious solution is to use 442s as a shuttle servi...oh..this is my coat, right?

 

[3141]

We discussed this a few months ago (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122904)
(this is not a dig at 3141 by the way, just at the whole concept)

Thanks for making that clear, tbtc. I hadn't thought you were getting at me, though sometimes the messenger does get shot.

Noting the forum joining date of the OP, I like this idea. I suggest a pedestrian level crossing would be best for where the new connection would divide the terminus concourse in two.

Pure coincidence about when I joined, Deepgreen! I think my own lack of approval for the idea should be evident from the way I reported it. Still, you know from recent experience on another thread that taking an objective approach can still lead to accusations of froth - and worse.

 

[Busaholic]

I've got a better idea for the SE passenger - build a connection between Charing Cross and Cannon Street, to alleviate the District/ Circle just as per original Fleet Line proposals and more recent DLR westward extension plans, then run all services through CX and CS as circulars, so no terminating platforms needed. In fact, if all the Dartford services via the three routes also ran as circulars, you need never terminate anything. Can someone give me £1 million to work up these proposals please?!

 

[najaB]

Can someone give me £1 million to work up these proposals please?!

£1M will buy a lot of crayons!

 

[Busaholic]

£1M will buy a lot of crayons!

Just what I was thinking - an odd bottle of Beaujolais too.

 

[jopsuk]

if you're determine to Crossrail services here:

Waterloo (Windsor Suburban) services should connect to Liverpool Street Overground and/or Fenchurch Street inners.

Charing Cross services should run through to Watford DC/WCML inners

Cannon Street services should run through to Moorgate line services

But, you know, through tunnels. Not across the Waterloo concourse.

 

[NoMorePacers]

And a barrel of my special beer!
And for a bargain tuppence: UKIP.

 

[Busaholic]

if you're determine to Crossrail services here:

Waterloo (Windsor Suburban) services should connect to Liverpool Street Overground and/or Fenchurch Street inners.

Charing Cross services should run through to Watford DC/WCML inners

Cannon Street services should run through to Moorgate line services

But, you know, through tunnels. Not across the Waterloo concourse.

Well, the Cannon Street services could only run on the surface to Moorgate before suddenly burrowing underground, which would go down a treat with the City of London Corporation.

 

[hwl]

I've got a better idea for the SE passenger - build a connection between Charing Cross and Cannon Street, to alleviate the District/ Circle just as per original Fleet Line proposals and more recent DLR westward extension plans, then run all services through CX and CS as circulars, so no terminating platforms needed. In fact, if all the Dartford services via the three routes also ran as circulars, you need never terminate anything. Can someone give me £1 million to work up these proposals please?!

Or extend Crossrail from Abbey wood to Dartford / Ebbsfleet / Gravesend for 1/10th of the price they quote
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, the Cannon Street services could only run on the surface to Moorgate before suddenly burrowing underground, which would go down a treat with the City of London Corporation.

alternatively there is a convenient space underground at Moorgate with a platform level of cicra 72m below street level

 

[Sunset route]

Have I missed something in this great plan, but where are the Kent coast expresses and Hastings line train supposed to go with Charing Cross closed?

 

[Kite159]

Have I missed something in this great plan, but where are the Kent coast expresses and Hastings line train supposed to go with Charing Cross closed?

They will carry on through brand new tunnels from Charing Cross to Marylebone and end up in Birmingham on a freshly wired up chiltern line

 

[DerekC]

Surely the obvious solution is to use 442s as a shuttle servi...oh..this is my coat, right?

You could just park them nose to tail across Hungerford Bridge making a covered walkway,

 

[MCR247]

So does the word crossrail now just mean any new route that involves joining two existing lines? What does this proposal 'cross?'

 

[HSTEd]

So does the word crossrail now just mean any new route that involves joining two existing lines? What does this proposal 'cross?'

The Waterloo Concourse.
I will also get my coat

 

[MCR247]

The Waterloo Concourse.

I will also get my coat

Ah true! [emoji23]